Glad my point is starting to stick, networking is key if you want to push and spend your time efficiently doing so!
My years of hammering on the point is bearing fruit! 
You seemingly ignored all of my other points.
We would just be looping, as you acknownledged my solution as a thing, then said it would not work in your scenario as put.
That paladins got more specialised utility is not up to discussion, nor does it need be. On higher keys we got 280 rets vs 193 fury warriors. There are 143 enh shamans.
Now let us not ignore that DK combined is less that 40. That monk doesn’t even exist. That survival got 12.
We are better off than most of all the melee. You can argue that DH and Rogue needs to be reigned in a bit. But that is a whole other discussion, and not about utility. That we are able to claw our way up in a DH meta speaks volume of our current power.
We could complain till our faces turn plale and blue, yet in reality - we are not that bad off. We are just very loud about being at worst high-midtier picks. Yet, someone got to be that, and it isn’t a bad place to be. That is why I simply don’t doom like most. Warrior simply works as is.
The only change I would like to see is OF baseline DPS increase, and if that doesn’t fix our DPS gap with the leaders (as DPS is what we do), then a 5-10% buff to meatcleaver could be in order.
Rest is community perception and dust in the wind problems.
I think the argument they are trying to make is that most other melee classes have these utility options readily available without having to use talent points in a “wasteful” manner, where as we need to choose our talent points for the occasion in the dungeon. The argument saying that warrior does not have the utility is not the correct one it is more of how our talent tree looks and operates if we were able to take these talents without major loss to dps that would be the more ideal approach and put us on a more even playing field with other melee classes where utility is concerned.
I still think utility that is specific to warriors and fall into our fantasy will not change leaderboards. In most cases my complaints have nothing to do with leaderboards, but with oh so common sense of “not being able to do anything” if some mobs, affixes and specific dungeon situations get out of hand, and only waiting for reactions of your team knowing full well that you cant change outcome.
Do not get me wrong, I like warrior and I do not think we should be one man army like Demon Hunters, but a little something to give us flavor and identity in terms of utility would be a welcome addition.
I recently started to play shaman, and while I am still doing low keys and learning class, the ability to purge, dispel, and help your group in various ways outside of that felt like a breath of fresh air and my experience doing keys felt a lot more rewarding.
I am not saying that warrior needs to be new shaman, far from it, but then again stuff like global spell reflect, derage shout, demoralizing shout on all specs, banners for movement speed added mastery or something else, basically all stuff warrior already had before, could work could make our gameplay more interesting and could actually add to the feeling of being useful in a more active way without pushing us over the edge in any way.
Let’s say we got the ability to throw Enemy Targets to a specific location, dealing damage to them and in the area of the impact, that screams WARRIOR and it can be something unique just we have that could be usable in many situations.
Problem is and remains a question of DPS vs utility, balance. Few are aware that warrior would be meta and was top pick before Aug hit the live servers. The creation of the aug-synergy meta, or Godcomp, is the only reason we were not top3. As our damage profile, while extremely strong with our durability, did not sync with their aug playstyle and gameplan.
Point being: We are so close to meta compared to others, that we are really in no spot to complain about that factor. We are more or less the spot DH and rogue should be brought down to; and rest brought up to. We are the ultimate high-mid spec.
If we get more utility, and I argue we already have enough, we need to cut our DPS. For those who are not aware, Warrior is the strongest DPS after the outliers that is DH/Rogue. We do a lot of damage and we are immortal. The ‘we need more to compete with the clearly overtuned specs’ is not really a thing, without us turning into the ‘OP needs a nerf’ spec.
Now, reason why I show the numbers, is because many will say things like “warriors are the worst and cant compete with X”, when reality, numbers show we do. This is my core point here, warrior is far from bad and is in actuality solid. For some numbers will help them see beyond the the fog of doomers.
While I would love to see some new utility for warrior, I really struggle seeing how we could get any. We already beat paladin on the CC front (Fear/STstun/AoEstun Vs STstun/AoEdisorientate). We beat their damage. Heck, we are even more tanky than they are. What they bring to balance our merits, is our flaw, they bring some specialised utility in cleanse/bop/offhealing tools (and they lose as much if not even more DPS doing so, than we do bringing shockwave). To the arguments of, you want more agency and options, warrior is not the class for it. Paladin, monk, shaman, and so on - would be the classes you go for that more broad experience. Warrior is and should remain more narrow and focused. Some classes/specs needs to be that way, or all specs are the same blob of utility and action bloat.
That all said, taking balance out of it, bringing fun-factor in. Sure, I would love is menace was just baseline for inti-shout, that is very warrior. It would be great if berserking actually inspired our allies. Things like that is very flavorfilled and fun. Though, with current style and design of warrior, it just doesn’t have any space.
To sum it up. Warrior is currently fine, we are not broken and we are not weak. We are high mid. We bring enough utility to get the job done, and we are getting the job done. Warrior is fine, it is the outliers that needs dev attention.
When I read Funkykittie, I feel like we do not live in the same universe…
Problem is and remains a question of DPS vs utility, balance. Few are aware that warrior would be meta and was top pick before Aug hit the live servers. The creation of the aug-synergy meta, or Godcomp, is the only reason we were not top3. As our damage profile, while extremely strong with our durability, did not sync with their aug playstyle and gameplan.
https:// mythicstats .com/meta
We were never top 3 however you want to look at it…
If we get more utility, and I argue we already have enough, we need to cut our DPS.
There are currently no specs that has more dps than us (taking fury as a point of comparison) which have less utility than us (with current popular talent choice).
Just looking a S3 & yeah don’t know either where he is picking up his “info”
Yes don’t stop here, please list all as you like to do, I’m curious if you will miss 1 class.
Again you are using your subjective feelings to rationalize your opinion on the matter. We have data, in logs, while they are not entire pciture sure they are good representation. No we do not have more damage than paladins nothing to write story about that is, best players of both classes on same key level are separated by 10k, and as you said difference in damage can be contributed to the fact that Paladins tend to press a lot more utility spells during their runs.
This means that if paladins never pressed their utility keys they would be exactly same in terms of damage as warrior is maybe just a little less.
We are not. This is Raider IO info with population M+ specs inside 20+ range.
- Havoc 13.4%
- BM hunter 12.6%
- Retribution Paladins 9.5%
- Augmentation 7.5%
- Demonology 6.4%
- Balance Druid 5.8
- Outlaw Rogue 5.3%
- Fury warrior 5%
This means that we are below average. Now if we consider that BM hunter, DH, Rogue, and Augmentation are meta, high mid would be Retribution Paladin and Demonology warlock.
We are at best in area or relative mid of the pack, right at the center of all specs. However there is a larger % difference in popularity between Fury warrior and Havoc DH, compared to fury warrior and Windwalker monk. This means that we are closer to worst spec in the game, compared to best spec in the game.
Here is the thing, one of 2 utility options will simply not make warriors all of the sudden be 10% of M+ players, we will still have same role as before, with a bit more flavor.
https://raider.io/mythic-plus-rankings/season-df-3/all/world/leaderboards/1#content
We are currently sitting in top 50 here.
https://raider.io/mythic-plus-character-rankings/season-df-3/world/all/dps/1#content
Bellow is the overall data that is the most interesting. We are there as well. Big suprise.
https://raider.io/mythic-plus-rankings/season-df-3/all/world/leaderboards-strict#role=all:mode=unique:minMythicLevel=25:maxMythicLevel=99
see
Based on the sources above at the current time. I do understand you brush my info under the rug, as it goes against your narrative, that is ok. You do you.
We simply disagree on what is healthy and fine, that we are bellow ret on popularity is not a big surprise. As since after the rework they have been very popular as a fun class/spec to play by players at any level.
It is not like we are left to rot, we are up there in the top ranks clawing for our rank. The top dogs prove it is doable, it is not the spec holding you back from reaching those same levels, it is you and your opportunity cost.
I am glad you agree.
I feel most people argue as if I disagree with your points, while I do in fact agree to your argumentation. I simply am against your solution being “Fury needs more utility”. Then you say things like
When it is literally there on raider.io as a source. Now I know most these remarks are just personal jabs more than anything. But, I fear it will paint a wrong picture for the more casual players who read this thread to be updated on the warrior situation.
Dooming is not necessary, our tier set is fine, the spec is fine. It just isn’t the best. And that is fine.
No I do not, you are using top 100 chart, knowing full well that does not represent fair data, because this chart is very much skill based, and again like last season you have few warriors that manage to push the ranks.
Top 100 runs are not representative of the majority of the players, especially when you have many teams repeating on multiple runs. Population take is simply way to small to make assessment on the entire game, especially when you have same exact warriors being in top 100 every single season. If class is in good place new names would be appearing up eventually.
We simply do. Even if we are “fine” we are class with least amount of utility at the moment just for that simply reason we need something new. Even with addition of 2 new abilties we are still class with least amount of utility.
No, you are doing that, you are seemingly only person who actually cares about position of warriors in top 100 runs. And you make your entire argument around that. Do you think that is representative of what casual players will experience playing warriors? You make warrior and what now you are new Critcake all of a sudden?
No you play with your friends or with randoms and play warrior because you like fantasy, and this area of play this “casual players” who play 20+ to 24 25 keys are living breathing soul of M+ and WoW endgame, they have most complaints about state of the warrior. Especially our utility, because they feel lack of it as they play it same way hunters felt lack of survivability as they played.
Just because you do not see complaints of MAJORITY of warrior players as valid, does not mean they are not.
And I will say only this at the end. For last 3 seasons you are saying same old story, “warrior is fine warrior is fine”. With every passing season we find ourselves in even larger problems, with even more issues compared to previous season.
Last season we at least had consistent damage during entire dungeon, now we are heavily dependent on short CD bursts that are not even that strong to begin.
And yeah last 2 seasons there were many complains about Odyns Fury and how underwhelming it is. And even then you were saying stuff like “IF they buff it they can make it overpower and warrior then is going to be overpowered so no, ITS FINE”
And then season 3 started, and Odyns Fury stayed in same state it began Expansion with and on look it is underwhelming, who would have thought. Well maybe everybody who played Fury for last 2 seasons.
Of all the things you were using as argument last 2 season, we are only left with our survivability, and we gained NOTHING, no utility, no gameplay changes, no refinements of our talents that are lets face it, needed. And this even top players agree on.
Warrior as a class is exactly same, with same exact issues, same exact complaints by majority of the players. Not only that but there were so many patch notes that ended with warlocks that it almost became comical at this point.
And you are here “worried” that one small simple change, small utility gain, small damage buff will somehow cause some kind of domino effect that is going to crash warrior to the ground. No it won’t, only change we had that being change on Anger Management, Ravager and Onslaught actually made spec a lot better, warrior is so basic and so underwhelming at this moment, that you need to be out to purposefully kill it as a class, to actually make it worse.
We are not fine, we are getting worse with every passing season damage meters show that, popularity shows that, even stupid tier lists show that.
I am not saying one change will have a domino effect. What I am saying is utility is not the solution that I would want to see. I rather see the outliers brought back into line, up or down, to even the playing field in a balanced way. We both agree warrior is mid, mid is the point where things should be centred around.
I talk about top 100, because you guys are talking about some sort of limit. The limit will be the max, the end goal the end of the road. I also mentioned just 25+, the bracket. Where we also are doing well. The complaint; “warrior can not do anything, booohoo.” Always falls apart with data. Then when you are shown that warrior indeed can and are currently doing ‘the impossible’, then you go “that doesn’t count! because because!” Again, you ignoring my examples, brushing it aside because it doesn’t match your narrative. Even though you see the hard-data.
Offtopic rant inc:
Answer to offtopic attack - not important for the rest of ya’ll:
You son of a murlock!
OF, my baby. The one thing I been complaining about all the time since launch. I advocated hard for OF getting buffed, I battled it out with breakdowns of OF vs OS math and the whole package argument that it needed to be buffed. Even this tier, I wrote in our warrior post to the devs, that OF should get a damage up bump. I am also the guy who advocates consistently for it to be buffed 51% baseline. Don’t you tell me I say OF is going to be OP, nah-ah, no you don’t!Me not saying OF needs help? It was my first post on the forum to ask for an OF buff. Heck it is 50% of my posts!
… Rude man, rude. Attacking my heart like that. Shame on you, sir
Offtopic rant over.
Indeed, I will likely continue like this into season 4, as the situation hasn’t really changed. Warrior has been decent to good all the way long.
The complaints remain the same, because if you ain’t number 1, you are a 0, in your mind. My stance remains, warrior is not the best. Some classes/specs need to be adjusted up and down. Warrior though, we are fine as high-mid.
Tierlist wise, we always A to B. Some S, man I love tierlists. We also been F. I say we are a solid B to low A. To use tierlist speach.
Warrior is not top, that is ok. We are midpack. Tierlists show that, logs show that, rankings show that. What do they also show? That we get the job done. That you can do highest level content as a warrior and indeed, even be top 50 world, as a warrior. We work just as fine from a +2 to +29. We zug, zug. We bap. We win.
Is it perfect? No. Do we need to doom and gloom, say everything is bad and the sky is falling? No. We are… say it with me, we are fine. The goal should be bringing others to our level, not trying to catch up in the action bloat arms-race to be perfect#1.
I see both sides of this argument, I personally think that they should not design affixes that are based on specific roles this alienates potential players from taking part in dungeons the affixes should be based off your class and personal to you so that you need to deal with your own affix at the end of the day. when it comes to utility/dmg profile I agree our dmg profile is not bad I think if you can play it well you can perform however when it comes to utility we do lack in terms of assisting the grp, we have fear/aoestun/single stun/interrupt/commanding shout. I think it would not be to much to add a demo shout the same that prot warriors have to the damage profile to be more useful towards the entire group this would not break the game or the emersion some people have.
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This is your Answer on one of my post about state of warrior talent trees. Back in January before changes to Onslaugh and Ravager.
While sure you are saying that you would love to see buff on OF at end you simply fell to your old way of thinking “Its fine” or “It is what it is, no changes needed”.
And see no changes happened, you do not seem to think that is good tho why, it was what it was right? It was not fine, it did not have right to be “what it is” it needed to change, because it lead to this exact issues we have now, and we are repeating conversation we had in January.
While yeah sure, you were “for” OF changes, you always tried to justify why changes actually should not happen, that being our already strong constant damage or Ravager being good, because Garosh Forgive we actually have a good interesting choice between good talents.
It does not, “data” needs to be complete, you can not pick area where you see fury warrior and say “see we are fine” you need a good enough sample size over longer time period to actually make assessment on the situation.
Here is where we stand.
Warrior started Dragonflight as one of the most popular classes, with over 700 000 logged warrior players in the first season in M+ dungeons, only druids were more popular than Warriors in season 1.
We fell sharply in popularity in season 2 and we are even less popular in season 3.
This means multiple things.
-
Something attracted players to play warriors, but seemingly nothing kept them there for more then one season(and I think you already know what I am going to blame for this)
-
Other classes that got more broad gameplay changes and talent refinements rose in popularity compared to the classes that got no changes.
-
Most of the classes actually tend to keep their relative popularity for long time, actually only exception seems to be warrior. Even monks and Warlocks kept their popularity in levels they began Expansion with.
Now this is my reasoning for this occurrence.
In season one Warrior talent tree was actually fine compared to other specs or lets say best of the bad talent trees, warrior had above average damage, and our tank was considered the best tank because of that damage, going into keys was easy, we were desirable, many people kept playing warrior to the end of the season.
Going into season 2, it became obvious that something was off with warriors, our tank dropped sharply in popularity after very serious damage nerfs, our 2 dps specs had a hard time joining keys, there was more and more conversation on forum about lack of warrior utility and seemingly a lot of people being frustrated that they are not getting invited into keys.
These conversations started to be more common in Incorporeal and Afflicted weeks.
This for me indicated that the moment we comparably lost that factor of having very good damage, that is a moment warrior was not desirable anymore because lets face it we have NOTHING else to bring that was important in last season.
Season 3 will probably be even worse.
And this comes back to what I was speaking about before, the moment our damage is not TOP, that is the moment warrior is undesirable. This means that we are hugely affected by unavoidable seasonal changes in damage, and the only way to prevent this is to keep warriors on constant top of damage meters, as DPS and our Tank as best tank damage dealer.
So we can’t be high mid, mid-on damage meters we need to be at the absolute TOP of it, because we are the class that lacks in utility the most.
To avoid this in the future, and to avoid warrior players being hugely affected by this consistently inconsistent damage balancing that was the case for 20 years, we need more defined role in group.
Since for the reason I stated before, the role of a simple damage dealer does not work in today’s balancing environment because classes that have more utility actually tend to have more damage recently good example Rogue, Demon Hunter, Hunter, or they are equal as us like Paladins, we need a utility that is going to define our class, so we can stop worrying about damage tuning every patch.
Warrior in raid is middle of the pack, yet I do not see forums complains about state of the Warriors in raid only in M+. Do you know why? Because we actually have utility that is hugely beneficial to raid groups we have our place DEFINED, some people consider Rallying Cry one of the best utilities you can bring in raid, and we are going to find a place no matter what, even multiple warriors is not a bad idea.
The situation is complete opposite in M+, that is why I think you misunderstand the argument here. We do not want utility to be the best, we want utility so we can avoid this paradox of needing to be, the best damage dealer in the game, to actually feel like we are useful in party of 5.
Utility is what defines class, its place in the group, not damage, because as we saw damage is changeable, we will never constantly be on top. And your argument that you want outliers nerfed is sound, but same as last season, it’s not going to happen fast enough nor will it happen to such a strong extreme for warriors to jump from middle to the absolute top.
So in my opinion, and this is end of this conversation, its much healthier to give warriors one or to more utility options that are defining enough and can fill specific niches in 5 man dungeons because this stays thought seasons and expansions. Even monk with all its downsides will stind find place in dungeons where you need to kite because or Ring Peace.
Compared to consistently falling into this never ending mess of balancing changes and following every tuning patch, hoping that we will get some kind of DPS buff so we can finally play our class more frequently in dungeons and actually feel like we are a major part of these dungeons.
As you stated before, warriors tend to be players who complain about damage the most, because it affects us most and yeah we care about damage in general because its only thing we bring, and we do not bring even that if other classes are overturned.
So you see, your solution to constantly buff our damage so we can be useful are actually more “warriors needs to be top” then mine solution to give some interesting useful utility.
I am sorry, you say I called OF good - when I literally said it was nostalgia bait? I asked for Buffs to damage and change of function.
Are you talking about where I said animations looked fine? Maybe that I thought it was fine that the most popular playstyle fury has had remained as is? That got nothing to do with each other in context.
Did you even read what I wrote there?
Your argument falls apart there. Rest is just an offtopic rant.
I am sorry - but if your pin-argument falls apart. Rest is not worth the read.
We agree, and agree again. See augmentation evoker. We both agree that warrior is mid. Now, I argue we do fill a niche and do our job. You do not.
Currently, warriors are doing the top-end content, that tells us that we are able to do so - it tells us we are fine to that point. Potential is there.
I respect that you want more utility to stand out more, to get easier invited. But in a game with 39 classes/specs or whatever it is, we already do. We are the solid DPS pick, that wont die and will do consistent stable DPS no matter what.
I can’t talk about how you feel, nor how you get into or not with keys. That is your situation. Be it gear, social issues or time limits (or the myriad of close to infinite reasons), you are not able to get into keys. I am. Most groups I check, do have a warrior in them, it is one of the things I check before signing up. As you don’t want two warriors, as warrior doesn’t fill all niches and demands of the group and dungeons.
Warrior do complain a lot. It annoys me, because there are others in a far worse position. We are doing the content, we are not locked out as a class or spec. I am not saying YOU are not, sure, YOU might be. But the class and spec is in no way held back.
If this what you take away from me saying:
Warrior is the high mid, and people should be brought to us, up or down.
Are you even trying to understand my point of view?
In case it is missed in the wall of text, these are some good takes 
Tho, I disagree we need more utility at its core. Now, the demoshout idea could actually be interesting to play around with (a sort of inverted rally cry effect, being dam red instead of dam absorb). Though I am worried how it will effect raids if it was implemented.
Maybe a 5 man damage reduction option instead of Rally?
See, this mentality is the exact reason that allows blizzard to do half job at balancing. None of us are locked into spec or class, we just prefer to play one or other. I personally despise the process of gearing again that is why I almost never play alts. Does that make me a worse player? Yeah, It’s just the way I play.
What is our “job”? What niche do we fill exactly? Non there is not a single dungeon scenario where you would say “Damn I wish I had warrior here”. Other classes can fill our role, we cant fill role of any other class.
We die when tank or healer die, we die when it’s wipe. We do not have much to help our party with to avoid potential wipe however.
Let’s say we got the ability to become priority of all spells mobs cast randomly on a target. This will allow us to use spell reflect in a more reliable way and even target abilities we want to reflect and not just wait for chance for it to happen, it will allow us to directly use our survivability to help the entire party, it will add more complexity, more and Garosh forgive me for even suggesting it, gameplay engagement.
And just like that, warrior becomes a class you bring when there may be a situation where you really worry about some dangerous casts. Will it become necessary? No, people can still do it the old-fashioned way of lining up interrupts, but maybe you can bring a warrior and actually benefit from having one in your party.
Just for sake of argument, how many 20+ keys you did this season? I am just going to put this out here I probably did more keys then you. I timed over 100 20+ keys last season over 50% pugs, almost 90% my own keys.
If you did not do close to that number I would say that I actually know more about state of warriors in group content, compared to you. Simply do to experience of being actually exposed to it.
What is this even mean, like come on, “skill issue” argument? Really? As I said we tend to complain a lot about damage because our performance, our desirability, our popularity, difficulty on how hard you get into keys, is highly affected by seasonal damage meters.
We are not the worst overall, however we do have the least amount of utility.
I mean, I do, I just do not think its a good time to be devoted defender of some kind of holy balancing order. There is no balance in dragonflight. Whole expansion clearly is Test Drive for new talent systems and as you can see many specs tend to get out of whack very quickly.
Don’t even argue with Funkykittie.
He is in warrior forums advertising since season 1 that warrior is fine and does not need any meaningful changes to utility or damage.
No matter what you say you won’t change his mind. You are wasting your time debating with him.
On a closing note: give warrior lust. All other plate tanks bring brez. Brez does not fit thematically but lust does. Give it to us!!!
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You are possibly deliberate misquoting me and you are making up stances you say I stand for; when I say something totally else. Please review what I actually wrote.
We will keep bouncing back and forth, going nowhere, if you simply say things like “You say X and Y” when I did not, you say “you mean this” when I mean something else. You infer ill intent or meaning where there is none.
Now, I don’t point to your direct quote just now. I am pointing out the past times you still have failed to address and ignored. If you do not address it, we can not go forward in honest discussion. It will just be debatebro talk.
We are not on the same page on what you think you are arguing against. If you want a discussion, we first got to establish a foundation. The foundation can not be based on things you make up that I say or mean.
If you want to bounce ideas, it must be done so in mutual respect and attempt of understanding.
Currently, you are fighting a shadow of what you believe I stand for. That or, you just want to argue and create friction.
This is an idea I supported in the past, and still do. Intervene should absorb spells as well attacks. As it gives that ability some actual usage.
I am not against Rally Cry getting buffed back up to 30% in 5man content. I am not against Intimidation Shout actually fearing all enemies, instead of the cap.
We agree on most things that could be improvements. We simply don’t agree on that it is a huge problem, I do agree it would be neat and QoL, also a good change for the warrior kit.
Not by people stating I say things I did not. Saying I don’t agree to things I agree with. Or keep going with the same tired tirade of: I can not get into groups, this is because utility. No warrior can do this! (even though… they do if fact do so).
Sadly it is not a debate, if I bring up a point, be it factual or not - only to have it discredited in a way or context that I didn’t even put it.
Now, if you think warrior needs a buff to damage and utility, with the goal to catch up and becoming an outlier - instead of bringing the outliers in. That is all up to you. I still think that is worse for the game, it causes even bigger gaps from the high to the low (remember, we are mid). It causes more problems than it solves with powercreep and utility bloat.
People saying ‘this is a problem, warrior can not do high keys!’ when we do, is grade A Tauren leftovers. If you can not get into a 20 key, that is a you problem. I will die on this hill.