Ngl i dont understand why you dont just reroll into a fotm class if you’re going to complain this much. Warrior is literally fine, buff dmg 3% if you must and call it a day.
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No I am not misquoting you, I am paraphrasing you in time in a sarcastic way because on this forums you seemingly became “Its fine guy” . Your main talking point is (paraphrase again):
“If we get something, there is a potential that we may become too strong, so that will cause balancing reduction on our other capabilities like survivability or damage, aspects that you are fan of, we are simply fine as it is and should not be changed”
Did I miss anything here?
If I did not, here is my opinion on this:
I don’t think this is the case, because of all reworks we saw.
Blizzard philosophy of Dragonflight reworks is
“Keep strengths the same, make weaknesses less of an issue”
Good example Vengeance Demon Hunter, let’s face it, that spec was in a good place at the end of season 2, it did not need any changes. Yet their rework, kept their core concept same, and just made it better more refined. Their damage rotation is a lot more refined and their damage in term is consistently good no matter the pull. Their ability to kite is better, and their main weakness that being that they tend to be squishy during long fights is made more forgiving.
Now, when you think about warrior, what are our strengths, and what are our largest weaknesses?
Our strengths are survivability and damage, our main weakness is lack of meaningful utility.
So if we follow the philosophy Blizzard uses for reworks.
Our strengths should be refined, made more consistent. Mainly our damage outside our CDs should be addressed on both specs, execution phase of a fury warrior needs to be looked at, and survivability of arms warriors should be looked at. Our cooldowns like Odyns Fury and Ravager should be looked at. I think we both agree on this. These are core aspects of warriors that lets be honest do not work very well now, functional, true, but could be much, much better if we are being honest.
Now for our weaknesses, only way Blizzard can address lack of utility is to:
- Add new utility
- Buff our already existing utility
- Reworks on already existing concepts
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I guess you love to stay 6 sec in Spear of Bastion, during your burst window? Its fine right, the gameplay aspect they removed from mages seemingly is ok for Warriors?
I complain because there are reasons to complain, there are aspects of our specs that are simply badly done.
Speak with any warrior main, nobody likes Spear in PVE, and I could not think of louder feedback concerning warriors at this point. Yet for over a year nothing was changed. In fact they are upgrading its visuals next patch, a slap in a face for the entire warrior community that tends to outright ask for is removal.
Yeah 3% buff is not going to fix that.
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I dont mind spear in pve, why does everything we do need to be zugzug? Stand still for 6 sec if you want the silly crit buff or run thunderous roar.
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So you are missquoting me on purpose, to be sarcastic. Your goal is being sarcastic and only missrepresent your actual understanding of what I say?
I could correct you again, but that would be pointless if your whole thing is to engage with it with sarcasm and twisting it.
I really can’t engage if that is how you want to do it.
Because its a bad design for melee dps, simple as that.
Blizzard removed it from mages, why they keep it for Monks and Warriors is beyond my understanding.
Rune of power for mages and spear of bastion for warriors are not the same. Rune of power lasted for 12 seconds and a very large part of mage dmg was tied to it, it had a shorter cooldown and was also procced by spells. A warrior in pvp will tether their enemies to the spear anyway, in m+ you will do the same, and in raid/bosses you can usually manage those 6 seconds in melee just fine every 2 mintues. For a mage that has to kite in pvp, get mechanics aimed at them in m+ / raid its usually harder (u blink and ur 12 feet away), especially because you have to maximize the uptime to do the dmg ur supposed to.
If we were forced to run spear id understand the issue, but we have the option not to, only on super ST fights is when spear becomes ‘‘mandatory’’.
Spear of bastion is very large part of our burst, that is now with this new build very large part of our overall damage in single target scenarios.
Spear of Bastion still falls into the same issues as Rune of Power, and that is the fact that when you are forced to move, you lose a large portion of dps.
Spear of Bastion can become just tether utility without any dps aspect and not a single thing would be lost. Move Crit increase to first 6 sec of Avatar, make Spear of Bastion an actual utility you can use outside your damage burst, and there we go, fixed.
Better use for spear of bastion would be to remove it from the game, it’s a nonsensical ability for a Warrior.
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I am only sarcastic when I say something like “Its FINEEE”
You often do not really engage, you tend to just point out leaderboards and say “See we are fine” completely ignoring the fact that niche top players belong to play this game using different philosophy, different understanding, and in general values different things.
It’s an extremely dishonest argument that you tend to present as “data” that really is not. As I said, not that it matters to leaderboards in video game, but the sample is way too small to be called “data” or a “fact”. Only fact is that there are warriors in top 100, warriors being “fine”, is only your opinion.
Now again, I will try to explain not to you but to people that may read this feel a huge disconnect between their own experiences and what you are suggesting and I will be honest, you, almost gaslighting them into feeling that they are wrong.
In a top player environment, mistakes tend to not happen, if they do, Key is depleted, simple as that, so the idea of mistake proofing your group does not really go into consideration. If you make a mistake, key is probably done anyway.
In such environment, warriors tend to function as nice survivability and damage boost to the groups, lack of utility does not really mean much, because every utility tends to be used in a more tactical and strategic way often perfectly timed for some dungeon mechanics.
Now the rest, 99.99% of player base, does the complete opposite. They tend to value utility that is going to bring them some kind of, well, let’s use the word “comfort”. In this more casual environment outside of top 500 range, the fact that warrior is hard to kill, means very, very little when do to mistakes of healer the other 2 DPS dies.
In an environment where tanks, healers, and DPSs tend to make a lot of mistakes, and this happens even on 23–25 keys, not having an opinion to cover for somebody else directly, not in a passive way, is a huge minus.
So, for that reason, people tend to pick classes that can cover for them and their teammates. That is very important in PUGs, and tends to be important in groups that play in a more hardcore level but not top of the leaderboards level. Warriors can only cover for themselves, we are very good at that, but that is not enough.
That is why stuff like ofheals, dispels, BoP, BoF, and other utility that will give you ability to skip, or make dungeon in some ways faster tend to have a lot more value, compare to this same utility options on highest level of play.
For this reason not only PUGs, but competitive premade groups, tend to feel limited by the presence of warrior, and warriors tend to feel useless, this is not how I feel, but it’s how many people seemingly do. Again you can make a perfect argument that learning dungeons, lining up your cds, and playing in a more methodical way lowering frequency of mistakes is going to improve your gameplay massively even if you keep warrior in your group and over time you will start to value what warrior brings, and you would be right.
However, why would you do that? If you can just replace the warrior with a paladin, or push a player who plays warrior to reroll, and have a much, much easier job pushing that key because the paladin is now covering for you if you are a healer.
And can you please stop laying about your experience in joining keys, well you are not exactly lying, but you are being purposefully dishonest.
You are on the level to play 20s, I can bet you are not getting instantly invited into them, because I timed 24 and 23 and I have hard time joining 20, and experience of other warriors I know, are same.
And before you go on, this is not an argument about networking so please spare me. Sure I can sign up for 16 and get instantly invited, that simply does not count, that is me being willing to boost that group.
Problem is, you are saying I say things I did not. You even bring up my quotes and infer a meaning and additions to it, not said by myself. It comes of only as an attempt to undermine my stance with fabrications or misunderstanding.
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Now, if yours or anyone’s argument is: “Warriors can not do this content!” then that is countered easily by, look at the top warriors - they are doing it. If people say, ‘warrior is not able to do top keys, there are only DHs and Rets!’ Then yes, I will show the data to back it up that warrior is indeed a top performing spec. We are not affliction warlock or one of the other actually suffering specs. We might “only” have 5% representation, seems small compared to 15%. But 5% against 0%, is infinitly better. I also argue that the 5% is more close to healthy. 15% is not, it could be a problem - if it is all fomo and not actual interest/popularity (that would be fine).
(…)
Now, to the players who want to feel they partake more in the group - with support. I heartly recommend going a different class. You seemingly agree with me that we are fine, even in a top end format. We are even better in low skill formats, where our weakness - lack of synergy doesn’t matter at all. Our lack of specialised utility doesn’t matter as much either, as the pulls are done at such a simple level that it is not needed. Our strengths though - High sustained stable DPS, great arsenal of stops and immortality, matters a lot.
You can argue, “why bring warrior, when paladin?” That is up to the group leader to decide. Still, as we are talking casual. Warrior is a very popular DPS to bring. We are solid and get the job done, every time - at a very low skill floor.
So why bring warrior? With warrior, you know what you will get: Zug zug.
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If you argue you cant get into groups. Well, that is a you problem, not class problem. Sure, class/spec is a factor, but it is not the reason why you can’t do keys.
I can’t speak for yours or others experience, but I see - Myself getting instantly invited to keys at the 18-21 level (farming gear). The groups I hover over to see if I am needed very often already got a warrior - so I know other are ‘chosen’ as well. I am not lying about this, nor being dishonest. It is my experience. Of course, it is the experience of my fellow warriors as well.
Could it just be that you are negatively inclined and as such feel that you struggle to get in. While I sit with a positive, so I feel that I get quickly to instantly invited. Perhaps. Though, I do know for a fact that warrior get into groups with no real issue at my level of play.
Stressing this point: I do find it weird that you don’t get invited quickly to 20s, when I do so with lower score.
This got a X-factor I don’t know of or understand, as it makes no sense. I am so lost to why it could be. Heck, I think it just comes to something silly like names. People just invite me cause I am called FunkyKitty or something.
(Also, networking is key if you want to push efficiently, you are 100% right about that, it needs to be hammered home into the community at large)
If you consider “low skill” format stuff like doing weekly 16s, then yeah I agree, but if you think synergies are not important in 20+ keys, then you are very wrong my friend. Most of 20+ players are very familiar with all best picks and META and they will in most cases gravitate towards it.
If you timed 1 20 key, you are top 10% of WoWs population. Its sounds weird, but its actually true. Many people do not even reach weekly 16s. And in that area Warrior has the same issue as in the area of 20, that being inability to affect risky situations or when somebody else fails.
Never said that we can not do content and in my opinion every class can do it. As I said is not question of “is warrior good class” is question of “is warrior bringing what I value”
And in a game where apparently all other classes bring some iconic flashy and useful ability to 5man groups warriors feel like a serious exception.
Rally and Spell Reflect are good abilities, and rally especially can mean the difference between wipe and continuation of a boss fight, however its cooldown is seriously affecting its overall usefulness in dungeons, especially now when Augmentation can keep a similar effect pretty much the entire dungeon.
You can not say that warriors are among top performing classes when difference between actual “top performers” and us is so large, DH, BM, Rogues and Demonology warlocks with Augmentation are top performers, Mages are keeping up with them. Warriors do not belong in that circle.
Not that I think we should be top performers, just point out your inaccurate use of “top”
Define me support DPS? Only spec that fills that definition is Augmentation. WoW never had truly defined support before augmentation, with “Holy Trinity” design “Tank DPS Healer” being staple all this time.
If there was a case where multiple specs including warriors had issue with utility, I would be agreeing with you, the problem is that warriors do not seem like a basic concept of DPS design, but a serious exception to the rule especially this Expansion. All other specs have at least 2 more utility options compare to warriors and I am not even considering stuff like Res in there that you can also consider time saving utility if you really want to.
As for our strong side, that being survivability, stuff that tends to oneshot most DPS specs, will, in a lot of cases, one shot us. So yeah we are hard to kill, but is that really what the rest of community is seeing? Warriors who make mistakes, die, so in eyes of many classes we might as well be survivable like shamans, at least they can resurrect
This makes no sense. Yes if I wait 30+ minutes to join BRH 20 after doing BRH 24, and go through multiple groups without warrior, I will get seriously frustrated especially if I play in a period where I may be limited with time.
There is 100% nothing in my RIO or my logs that can be a red flag to the party leader, so in terms, the only logical assumption is that I am not getting invited because I am a warrior.
And yes, I look at what classes group already has and do not apply in ones that have warrior or lack CR or BL.
We disagree what actual top performers are then. For me, having 5% representation in the top bracket is being part of the circle. We are doing 28-29 keys. We are in the top 100 keys. We are in the 50 keys. We are in the top 25.
That should be the definition of being able to be a top performing spec - when the spec is consistently in that sphere. Compare that to the low performing specs, that has not even done a 25, or the best of the best specs that also are doing 29-30. We are top-dogs, in all but community perception.
Are warriors solid? Data shows as such. My own experience says as such. If I was to say warrior was weak, I would vomit in my mouth, as we are so close to meta you can get from mid-tier.
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Low format for me is casual content, aka +2 to +20, maybe down it to +18 (weekly vault). That area. Now my experience is that most +20 players are one of two camps, the ‘Why did you invite him? We need X or Y.’ that we ignore and clear the dungeon ez. Or the guys who just get on with the work that is the dungeon.
If you go under 20, you funilly enough find people who want to build meta-groups. Those guys are also now slowly creeping into the 20 range. Those guys will not invite a warrior, nor would you want to play with them. They are… special.
Week 1 till now, it has been a good time and nobody seemingly cared what you brought - as the key would be completed anyhow and in time (with a good margin). +2-3 is quite normal for 20 PuG keys at this point, as we overgear it so extremely.
(…)
If you want to bring a spec that brings more utility and specialised options, there are other classes that do this. Warrior bring its more straight forward kit, and it is solid. That is my point. There is charm in simplicity. Not everyone got to be Paladin.
Now, as we brushed on a few times, we both agree that the utility we already got could need some refinement. Rally getting buffed in 5man content would be nice, wrecking throw working as shatter for the affix would be nice, intervene redirecting spells would be nice, intervene removing afflicted would be nice. Key difference is, people want more utility that others got on top of what we bring. I simply want to see our experience more honed.
Now, are we fine as is and can we do the keys? Yes, we can. We are fine. Could we get some QoL - yes, that would be fine as well.
Now - things oneshotting warriors, who can get 70% damage reduction flat, is just bad play. Between Enrage giving us flat 10% dam reduction, Enraged giving 30%, then we got spell reflect 20% and dstance for another 20%. We are one of the more tanky specs out there. Not to mention the pure value against RoT or DoT with Victory Rush or Blood Thirst. We are very tanky. You can easily survive no-seed Fyrrak, you can easily survive the Tyranical Dread Lord shadowbolt. I won’t say Fury or warrior is fragile, that would be dishonesty.
(…)
I just tried to que for BRH, a couple of times, all the times I got close to instantly invited. A few sec. Could be Ilvl I guess, I am currently sitting at 484.
Now, I don’t care if a 20 got CR/Hero or anything really. All I care if there is another DPS warrior in there. Usually they just ask ‘you got drums?’ and I do the ‘+’. That is it.
As far as I know there isn’t any negative community perception about TarrenMill, or any other memey reasons to concider.
We are both just clueless on this, how and why. So, got to chalk it up to…
It is what it is.
We do not have 5% representation, we have sub 3% in 25+ keys. As for real top performers being top 100 runs, there are only 2 runs that have warrior in them.
If we use your logic, enchantment shaman is performing better than warrior.
Exactly, and that is my point, warriors do have a chance to mitigate bad play of themselves not of their teammates in higher keys nor they have ability that in active way use their survivability to help their group. I played 25 +AD this week, and trust me, no matter of Enrage Regeneration Spell reflect and all passive defensives will save you if you step on a spider (it oneshots you on lower keys as well so nothing new here).
As far as my experience that is an instant death, now you tell me if you play this dungeon knowing full well that by far hardest encounter is last boss, who would you bring as a last DPS spot? Paladin, Demon Hunter or a Warrior? That fight in general becomes so messy after some time that you almost have to expect somebody will step on a spider, eventually, so you might as well bring a class that will use their immunity to remove some of this dirty insects.
No point in pointing out reduction, as I said outside passive benefits of having a warrior, we can not use our survivability to get rid of mechancis. We can ignore some mechanics with spell reflect on individual level.
I agree with you that we are probably most survivable melee spec, a bit better compared to paladins actually, difference is that they can use their survivability to actually take care of mechanics. Paladin using Divine Shield to remove some spiders is such a powerful helping moment in that fight for example.
You can’t really do that if other warriors on these forums pointed the same phenomenon. Not just this season, but seasons prior, and even going back as far as Legion. So me being unable to join key is not an isolated incident, many people feel that way.
This season I am actually doing fine because my RIO is higher than last season in the same time frame. Yet still joining 21-22s feels like an impossible task if let’s say I want to change the key I got. Last season, your explanation to this was “You are behind a curve”. Now I am really not, yet the same issue persists.
A small prenote: I do believe we have discussed quite throughoutly the topics, with exception of the last. It feels like we reached the closest commonground we will get at this current time. I do hope though, you will be willing to discuss things in the future. It has been a blast to actually bounce back and forth.
(…)
Fury Warrior at 25+, has fallen down to 2.4% at current time, Enh shaman is sitting at 1.8%. Affliction is at 0%. Elemental shaman is 0%, surv hunter is 0%, arms is at 0.1%. Yes, DH is 14% (down from 15%), still… WW monk is 0.1%. UDK is 0.1%. Sub rogue is 0%.
I stress this point. Fury Warrior is eating good, compared to most specs. 16 specs are dead. 11 specs are doing what I call fine. 2 specs are clearly having something going on for them, having 25% of the total representation in between them. It should be looked at.
3% for each spec is a perfect “balanced” world. It won’t happen, as some specs will have a lead. But that 3% range mark, that is good place to be in. 0%, that is where you doom and gloom. Fury Warrior is not at 0%, we are at the ~3%.
We are a high-mid spec, with players who prove that we can compete and complete in the highest of keys. Other specs, they got nothing. So, rather than to ask to get more of the pie, I ask for some of the pie DHs have to be… redistributed, so to say.
If the case is, DH is just so darned fun (and not because of power lead), that the players just love it. Well then, I am fine if DH stays as is (next expansion is sure to bring some fun to the rest of us as well - a problem that is expansion/rework level hard to fix).
A conclusion of the are we viable and/or topend:
- We both agree that warrior is in the top 50, we disagree if that means warrior is concidered a top-end spec. Your weight being on generic population wall-limit, mine being on the proven actual current limit of the spec.
- We disagree on what % is a healthy state of a class to be at, data-wise. I argue heavy that as warrior is represented similar to most of the other mid-high specs, and that we are doing well comparing to the specs who are locked out, and putting less weight on the extreme meta outliers that is DH and Aug. You put a lot of weight on us being so far behind the extreme outliers and gradually shrinking comparably.
- I believe Fury is viable, and argue for it with the points above (actual existing representation). You argue Fury is not truly viable (in practise) because of the disparity in potential power against DH/Aug, that later on in the set meta will gradually push us out over time.
- I argue for that DH should be brought down closer to Fury. Ideally, that the 0-1% specs get brought up to the 3% mark. You argue that Fury Warrior needs changes so it too can close in on DH popularity and power.
I hope I did not misrepresent your key points here. Do tell if so.
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Mechanics designed to oneshot kills you. Indeed they do. That note aside, we got the ability to survive what we are meant to survive.
Let us take BRH last boss as an example, we handle that place so well. The Volley takes us to 70% HP, when others go down to 20-30% - we don’t even need help with the DoT after effect. Swarm we can top ourselves up quite efficiently till it gets nuked down. I seen paladins die to it on +24 after their bubble and defensiveness were gone. I was chillin’ all the way.
If you argue that our survivalability does not directly help others, that is true. Though indirectly, it allows the healer to spend their CDs and attention on your teammates instead. Be it BoP, ironbark, raw output or plea (or DPS), it gets redistributed and the stress overall lessens.
Us just handling it, lets others handle other things without worry. So, it is not all pointless. Still, if your point is purely that: “If avg Joe steps into deathpool and he is slowly dying, I cant help” or “I cant dispell/immunity X or Y”. You are right. My counter-argument to that though remains the same - if you want to have the tools to handle that, other classes do have that option for you. It is not necessary a good thing to make that a warrior job too.
Now, sure - we do lack the tools to help friends with other than rally. I even have agreed, many times, that rally could be looked at for 5 man content. I given other examples also. I do believe we both agree to most things here. We just get hyperfocused on where to exactly draw the line between fine and not.
A conclusion to our discussion about utility:
- We both know and agree that warrior is a tanky zugzug; I believe that tankiness got more inherent value than you, when it comes to a team setting.
- Community perception is percieved by many as being far worse than our potential, we seem to agree. Both in utility, damage and tankiness. As the ‘casual’ player see the warriors who do not use our strengths, fail at their jobs and die to random avoidable stuff. This is a negative for all warriors.
- Our stop kit is excellent, we both agree on.
- We disagree on the if warrior should get “paladin level utility” in their kit. Paladin here being a term used for all classes utility: Be it BoP, Heroism, Combatress, cleanse, RoP and so on. You want a broader and more similar kit to our competition included into warrior, so we can compete on equal footing. I disagree, not wanting to see all classes to become too similar in what they bring, that if want that you should play Paladin to get that Paladin experience. I want Warrior to stay zug zug.
- We both agree that warrior own kit should be looked at, like rally for 5 man content, but also our other niche tools. This for the goal of having a more unique class impact in keys.
I think we both can agree this part of the discussion to be concluded, if there is not something else you want to bring or correct?
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I do enjoy that you brought up last boss in Atal.
You ask me - what class would I bring for the last boss in Atal? Are you crazy? Warrior is premium value. Not only do we only take max 1 of every 2 bolts, we reflect it back for silly good damage. If we get unlucky and hit twice in a row - we got enraged to roll it off. We are superb for that fight. Spiders crawling around? We got leap and charge to get back and forth with soulrend - we are phenomenal on that fight.
Also, don’t step on spider to clear them, just don’t. That is just area-denial. Either kite boss in the good old Legion circle, or do the A-B-C, to ball them. Doesn’t matter if there are 100 spiders, or 1, threat level is the same if handled correctly. One happy big ball of spiders, or a train of spiders in tow. That is how you want to handle them.
If handled correctly, and ranged know to actually position themselves for spiders, then you never should have any issues beyond the ‘stressfactor’ of dodging the spiders during rend.
First off, I am happy to hear you are doing fine and you are only struggling partly to get into keys. It sounded a lot worse (being declined from 20s, having done 24s) and a lot more doomy. Things being fine is a perfect baseline, I hope it gets only better from here on.
I started this weekend, because I was interested, to see if it hard to get into keys as warrior. I am honest when I say - this question interests me, it is like an itch to know what is going on. So far, I do get invited really quickly, if not within the same minute, we are talking two or three mins at most. Now these are 20s. I just started this evening on 22-24. Will be fun to see what happens over time. I expect things to slow down, especially as I am now doing it with a mindset of not networking at all. If anybody asks to go next key, I will say no.
So far all I know is getting into any sub 20 content to be a breeze. I am not saying getting in wont be a problem for many warriors, in general, that they can’t seem to find keys. But, I also suspect those are the warriors at 450-480 ilvl, or with sub 3k score. Because I do see a lot of them in the sign ups, and I am not going to lie, I would not invite them either. Why do that when you can bring a 3.1k 480+ warrior thunderchad instead. Luckilly for me, I am the that 20 key thunderchad… for another week or so, when the rest catch up.
That aside, you are not behind the curve (on score) - Yet I am! Catching up now as my gearfarm is done, so I hope we can both update on this topic a bit later. See how next week and its affixes affect things.
I am honestly intrigued. So it is a fun little project to get going, as I don’t do keys for score itself.
I don’t play retail rn, so I don’t have strong opinions on the matter. But I have to wonder when I see lvl 65 war in blue gear argue against all the other warriors. Is this some forum bug or do you actually not play the class? 
Because if so, are you really arguing against people with first hand experience, while using WC logs for arguments ? Just curious.
People aren’t going to be happy unless Warrior is contender for the no1 spot, the same is true for players of all classes, but Warrior rarely has that spot these days and when it does, it’s quickly complained about and nerfed.
That said, forget about the performance because I think Warrior design is far from great and all the new talent trees have done (while great in concept) is strip Warriors of their baseline utility by way of offering dps talents that compete for the same talent points.
The set bonuses themselves are fine, even good, the limitations in how powerful they are (target limit on Odyn’s Fury / Thunder Clap Rend spread) are part of why Warrior doesn’t reach the heights of some other classes on multi-target in general, that exists regardless of the tier sets.
That’s not a Warrior problem, that’s a M+ problem and a World of Warcraft problem that has always existed and Blizzard hasn’t even attempted to improve. The only solution to this is don’t pug, easier said than done for some people.
Of course it’s easier for a stronger class, but if you have 50 people signing up to a key, you’re going to pass on a lot of BM Hunters, Demon Hunters and Rogues too.
No, again you miss the point.
I said on multiple occasions that I do not want warrior to become a new Paladin or Shaman. But we can easily be brought to the level of Hunter, Demon Hunter or Death Knight for example.
I do not want warriors to have dispels, and resurections. Like that was never “warrior” utility.
I will just give you example of what was part of our overall kit in at some points prior to legion reworks, and you make your own conclusions why warrior players may feel they lack utility right now and presence in the party right now.
Skull Banner-increasing crits of other party members
Demoralizing banner/shout that lowered damage of enemies
Mocking banner-that caused enemies to attack it
Disrupting shout- AOE interrupt (real one)
Mass spell reflect in PVE
Safeguard
Vigilance, that allowed warriors to give a very strong defensive cooldown to another party member.
Disarm, that was used in PVE
On top of that we already had what we have now Fear, Slow, Single target Stun Berserker Rage, intervene Spell Reflect all of this abilities plus some were base of our kit, and even then stuff like Dragon Roar previous iteration of Thunderous Roar, and Shockwave were much more interesting choices. Roar had CC aspect to it, and Shockwave actually had respectable damage, making the choice between this 2 very interesting.
As you can see, the idea that warriors is “no utility class” is new and it was not historically the case. Warrior was never Paladin or Shaman, it was Warrior, it had its own interesting utility that brought benefits to the group as a whole.
But here is the thing, problems with warriors now do not come from nostalgia of how warrior was design, its problems come from Dragonflight design, and in my opinion sorry excuse for a talent tree that we have.
Most other classes and I said this many times, got “expansions” to their already existing abilities, warriors got their legion base abilities as talent choices to the point of being comical, I mean you can for some reason skip Rampage, an ability spec can’t function without you can not call that a good design.
And clearly for next expansion Blizzard aims to expand on new system attached to base abilities not on existing talent systems existing talent trees. And that is a main reason to push urgency and call for rework of our talent tree for all 3 specs.
Trust me if we go into next expansion with existing talent trees without any major changes, we will fall into the category of dead class, not because we can not function but because our talent tree is already so clunky in comparison to other specs, that attaching any new system to it will simply break it apart.
Fair enough, you do not wish for warrior to have paladin level utility. So we both agree, more or less. Just minor disagreements like, I don’t believe Skull Banner is a healthy thing for warrior (see DF beta discussions, for why it was removed). I would believe that mass spellreflect would have too much power as a CD, or it would have too long of a CD to be useful in M+. As it is either extremely broken or just another ‘rally - neat to have, not gamebreaking.’ Of course, I expect you just brought them up as examples of prior tools, not a direct ‘I want this’.
On the flip of the coin, we agree on menace Distribution Shout and such to be tuned so they are worth while the point investment to bring.
We both agree that warrior bring utility, we both seemingly agree we shouldn’t bring Paladin levels of utility.
We disagree firmly on the DH problem, as mentioned before above, how that should be handled. The whole I want everyone brought to mid, you want us brought up.
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I am not too interested to address the whole ‘talent tree situation’, as it is currently serviceable and gets the job done for now. It is a v1.2 iteration, and I believe we both expect it to see a revamp in the coming expansion.
The next expansion will be a whole new discussion and talk, as we will see how things work on the alpha to beta before starting to doom/hype or really have anything to base opinions on.
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Seems like this ends our discussion about the above topics. It was a good time, I wish you the best till we talk again!
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This is my 5th warrior alt, it was the one I started posting on, so as posts-threads are saved on this forum by character, it kinda just stuck around as my forum avatar.
Don’t worry, I also argue from experience, and logs/data-sources.
Would be hilarious though, if I did 20s on my 65 warrior and got invited to 20 keys on the regular. While level 70 warriors could not get invited 
Indeed it is, I did not mean to say it was warrior only. Same as networking isn’t a warrior only solution to the problem of pushing.
DH, augs and rogues, I seen all those been passed over for myself as a warrior. So, hey, that is some light in the tunnel if nothing else.
And this is why I have been fighting since the patch PTR (and before then) that OF should have gotten a 51% damage baseline increase; it would make up the slack and it would put OF in a position to compete for a slot between OS and OF when the tierset leaves the field.
The cap on OF DoT especially just stings, as having it uncapped would at least allow us some AoE value and not break our burstwindow.