sure but in mythic often bosses have tacts where 1 fail its a wipe, so in my mind they aree doing tacts. but yea as for normal and hc, does loot minmax even matter there?.
I can see u got some points, but sady as i said i seen alot of bad stuff and exploit from master looters in guilds.
Generally, the lower skill level your group has, the more emphasis there is for loot distribution. Since Pandaria Blizzardâs way of tackling people not being able to kill bosses is to give them more loot to overpower the boss.
I raided with a variety of players throughout the years. I raided with a raid group who could breeze through most heroic bosses on the first week of the raid, and I also raided with friends where the only time we killed a tougher heroic boss is when we got lucky and our worst performers did not get a raid wipe mechanic assigned to them.
Heroic is the basis where you gear up, so you have the gear to start heading into mythic content. Due to this reason I would say yeah, min-maxing really starts in heroic (and for those guilds who struggle with normal it starts in normal. It is based on your raidâs capabilities).
The system being exploited is sadly true, and the lower you go down the competitive ladder the more you will see it happening. A lot of people who had experience with it came from cesspool guilds, whom I do not even necessarily call guilds at that point. It happens less the higher you go, because those people pushing to do actual end game mythic are there because they want to kill every boss possible. They are willing to make collective sacrifices to achieve the end goal: To kill the last boss and get CE.
It may also just be that, because the majority of the raider playerbase plays in normal and heroic levels, there are more players who can abuse the situation.
From experience, giving players the option to choose between PL and ML isnât going to work either. When the option was available you could barely find guilds who would use PL as an option, even when it dropped more loot. No self-respecting guild would forgo the advantages of ML just to get more loot and have the chance for the overall group to lose out on major upgrades due to RNG.
I am personally in favor of ML, always were. Bringing it back is genuinely going to be a challenge because of the single biggest factor that caused us to lose it in the first place: Players themselves.
well in that casee it dosnt matter at all. since every one is bad right?. why flame a bad player getting loot while being bad, when rest is on pair. xD i find it abit funny. but sure.
You have 20 players in a raid, and it is a statistical impossibility for everyone to be equally âbadâ. I would say that even loot distribution is even more important in these situations. If most of your raiders are underperforming, the best way to ensure that your progression still goes on is to distribute the loot as evenly as possible. With even distribution even if your raiders underperform, the collective DPS of the raid increases to eventually meet the DPS or HPS check of the boss your raid is stuck on.
Mind you this is a thing since we were given the option to outgear bosses. Before that your players had to improve on an individual level in order to overcome challenges.
Gearing your best players is never a good basis to go by either, that is why I feel that individual skill should never be the primary determining factor when loot is being distributed. One should never gear a single player or a small group, because the moment they are not there your group is set back even more because you funneled loot to these players. It also drives players away like nothing else.
That is also why I do not like the current situation where M+ players are mixed into this pile. Individual play is empathised more in M+ than in raids, and thus the importance of loot is bigger on each individual player. This of course in a raid environment means that players will focus on gearing themselves first and foremost, because in M+ you do not only have to be good, but you also need to have gear as well (talking about higher end keys here, of course. M+ players joining mythic guilds arenât doing it so they have the gear to complete 15s).
As someone coming from Destiny Games where Master Loot never existed, I can understand that stance. It is a system that allows certain type of players to be very toxic Lootmasters. We didnât even had something like that in Destiny Games but said toxic players used âkick from groupâ to remove players from Raid Activities before they could pick up their loot and said loot then went lost forever, til Bungie fixed it by sending the Items you didnât picked up on the map to your personal Mail Inventory.
Edit: To make my comparison more clear. I compare the players, not the Loot mechanics with that example.
Can the loot be traded in Destiny though?
If not that puts the entire comparison into a different perspective. In WoW a raid group aims to collectively gear each other (or atleast they should, that was the reason ML was in place). If gear cannot be traded in Destiny then what you described players were doing were only coming out of spite more than anything else.
No, not at all.
It does, but I didnât mean it as a comparison to ML in WoW directly. More a comparison towards the bad parts of the WoW ML community vs the bad parts of Destiny Raid Community.
Fair enough, though I think most know by now that communities have their bad sides. The gaming scene changed a lot over the years, and unlike at the start gaming isnât necessarily viewed as a bad stigma these days.
Gaming as a result attracts more people, and with the good comes the bad as well.
So true⌠I canât even remember the days when being bad at a game was not a flaw to most players.
i remember having this conversation with you a while back and how my experience hasnât been like this at all. that doesnât invalidate yours of course.
i do think that being in a guild where i donât trust the officers to do right by their members is a really unfortunate situation. i would not want to be in a guild like that in the first place. foundation made of paper.
Have similar views with Puny as well. ML has the temptation to be abused and given the lack of responsibility and anonymity among them WoW players the only thing holding back ML abuse is âwanting not to be a 
towards other playersâ and thats barely a deterrentâŚif you can even call it a deterrent.
Sure. NOT every guildâs leadership will give into that temptation sure but the fact that you can easily be greedy and can get away with itâŚis troubling.
PL is not perfect but its just plain RNG. Either you are lucky or your not. Simple. No favorites, no âGMâs girlfriendsâ and so forth. Unfortunately that luck doesnât always play well and some people believe that they are just plain cursed with bad luckâŚbut like I said. I never claimed that PL is perfectâŚ
i agree, it aint perfect, but far better than ML. and also game comes down to RNG in the end anyways, a guild can be lucky or unlucky without PL/ML. so in the end allowing ML wont change a thing. its not like some plays with PL and some plays ML as of right now .
All plays with PL so what is really the issue? unless ur a goblin guild leader.
PL has so many problems iâm glad they are considering bringing ML back, it worked so much better in guilds than the thing we have right now<<
they could just do what they did back in antorus and have PL and ML coexist, it would be perfectly fine in my opinion
Thereâs no need for straight up master loot to come back. Just loosen the restrictions on trading personal loot. Few things in this game frustrate me more than looting an item thatâs useless to me and not being able to trade it to someone who could use it, or vice versa.
If youâre worried about âGM stealing muh lootâ, I just donât know what to tell you anymore. Find a guild thatâs not lead by douchebags. If itâs as widespread as people pretend it is, then it must be an actual miracle that Iâve been through no less than 15 guilds since Legion and not a single one was even near as bad with loot as you love to pretend. Thatâs because leading a guild badly, which includes biased loot distribution, leads to the guild disbanding. Itâs really not hard to spot the issue early on and look for another one.
And if youâre just a loot goblin who wants to hoard every piece of loot you get for yourself, then you shouldnât be in a guild anyway. If you enter progression with a selfish mindset of getting loot instead of progressing as a team and doing everything with that in mind, then youâve completely missed the point of what progression raiding is about in the first place.
And why you should be given any loot when you were not part of progression raid and you had yet no guild trust rofl. Entilted much?
Thanks blizzard for yet another reason i dont ever raid again in my life 
You make guilds sound like a jail, or a cult. what sane person wanna join something like that. gl with ur ML guys, gonna bring wow to new heights.
No it was in past completly normal for new guild members to first prove themself before they got any loot. You also dont get full salary during trial in new job. You are new and unknow player and nobady knows what to expect fron you so it makes sense that guild managment enforce such rules.
Also giving new guild members loot while your current members has been spending huge amounth of time and effort on progress would cause social breakdown withing your guild and huge amounth of drama. I have experience this in guilds where was loot given to new members which nobady of alredy established members liked which caused players quiting guild and end up ruining entire guild. It isnt worth it. Most new guild members have no problem accepting fact they wont be given loot for period of time. Its just few of those entilted ones like yourself what are luckly minority and most of time end up kicked out of the guilds.
This only shows that you have very little to no experience with running actual guild. There is lot of social problems you have to deal with and slight mistake or nonunderstanding can cause your whole guild disapear over night.
alot of stuff was normal in the past. like not having toilet paper, or not taking a bath or shower, or not brushing your teeth, or slavery was also normal at one point, and that is what guilds want, slaves.
âârunning actual guildââ what does that mean even. u make it sound like a job, i hope you are not in power of a guild. one would think only players who actually like to âârun a guildââ would be running a guild and the reward of running a guild is running the guild. you speak of worthy and entilted,
ââ the ones running the guild deserves the lootââ
ââworthy of lootââ
ââ players spending time deserves lootââ
ââ loot given to a new player could cause dramaââ
Hahaha im looking forward to read about a more entilted players than you guys.
You might be the most loot craving creature ive seen.
And M+ will get need/ greed? Imagine some random âstealingâ your item youâve been farming XYZ for many times. Personal loot is my thing now.