Burning of Teldrassil was a genocide

Lore Story
41

Yes, and that’s why now she’s giving anduin choice, to try to force him into abandonning hope, and make him feel exactly same just like she did when she got killed by Arthas? To make him feel the same feeling of failing your people and making them die?
The literal exact same thing she did with Delaryn?

Yes, let’s just complete ignore the fact that Sylvanas is the most impulsive, spiteful, overly emotional character in the whole universe, because it would suit your argument.

You can cover your ears, close your eyes and scream, but this is just what Blizzard is doing. They made her this evil, sorry being that can’t deal with her own emotions, so she passes the pain on other people, even if it means wiping almost their whole race in the proccess.

There’s no other reason for Sylvanas to try to make Anduin abandon hope than Blizzard showing us she’s still the same Sylvanas that started war of thorns. The same sorry being who spreads pain to feel better about herself.

1 Like
42

You mean like exactly what Sylvanas did?

43

She actually said to anduin later that she wanted to invade org and kill even women and children.

I know as an alliance player you always defend what is yours but that doesnt happen with me im afraid :stuck_out_tongue:

She actually attacked because sunreavers followed garosh that already said to them join or die.
Therefore your shiny alliance frost witch killed those who would have been killed if they would not join.

Arthas marched alongside the alliance armies.
You bear resposibility for what he became because you helped them.
I know as always none of the alliance understand it was a hooman that wanted to erase the blood elf race but its still your shiny prince.

Your siege machines destroyed it and jainas spaceship. Get your excuses elsewhere please.

Are you surprised war happened inside WARcraft? Yes you are. :laughing:

When did you fight for honor? When you destroyed UC for no reason and then call out genocide?
When your ice witch killed all the non armed civilians in MoP?
When your kings dawg demanded zandalars to surrender ? LOL

Cmon… Dont be funny.

Azerite war started, we attacked first.
The genoside BS is because your fragile EGO was hurt and it should be because you got devastated it BFA.

You must be talking about jaina now right? You know he one she escaped in BoD just because blizzard knew your fragile feelings will hurt alot if she died as she should…

It was WAR inside WARcraft. Deal with it.
If you want peace play SIMS or something else.

1 Like
44

Attempting to make sense of Sylvanas motivations is a futile effort at this point, because the writers themselves are unable to decide about them.
One the one hand they want us to believe she’s that cold, calculating multidimensional chessmaster who plans everything years in advance and is always 3 steps ahead of everyone else, on the other hand we have to witness her hissy fits and emotional knee-jerk reactions all over again.

Which is why I can’t even take her serious as a character any longer( not even as a villain character) but rather think she’s just a plot device for whatever story they want to tell or message they want to get across at the time.
And I just don’t care any more.

4 Likes
45

Yes?..

10char

46

Actually, both Northuldra and Zarao are correct which is a huge Sh@t show.

1- In Warbringers: Sylvanas burns Teldrassil after getting triggered by Delarin.

2- In Elegy/Good War: Sylvanas burns Teldrassil after getting triggered by Saurfang telling her Tyrande saved Malfurion.

3- In the Novels+ in-game (War of Thorns) Sylvanas states her objective is to slay a Kaldorei leader and take Teldrassil hostage, in order to break the Night Elves and fully control Kalimdor.

We now have a contradiction despite knowing Sylvanas was in league with the Jailor since Edge of Night. If they wanted to imply she was knowledgeable of the state of the Arbiter and the Shadowlands and she planned on burning the Tree from the start they have failed to do so in 3 years. They had to go outright and say it during Blizzcon and keep retconning things from the past to make it work, and it is still messy. (Biggest failure for any writer is the need to explain your canon outside of your actual work because it is flawed and does not make sense)

They failed to make Sylvanas the mastermind (4D chess player/Tactician) they set her out to be. Her motivation is not clear and it is contradicted in more than one part of the canon.

Blizzard failed immeasurably at the plot, and the end result was raging Night Elf Fans as well as Forsaken ones. Disappointment for everyone.

But fear not! They’ll retcon some more to ‘‘fix’’ it.

7 Likes
47

The order regarding retcons determines which one is to be take as canon.

And given that 2019 Blizzcon was the last clarification regarding her motives, before we jumped into SL, that’s the angle we are to take as canon for the story.

With recent developments, we may be in for an upcoming one about her doing such for some yet indiscernible greater good goal.
But as things are at the moment, fact remains that Sylvanas burning of Teldrassil wasn’t because of some fixation against them, nor about some knee-jerk reaction.

48

It was a retcon that was in line with how the lore was flowing, they didn’t change anything. Only added new information, which is different from Dalaran purge for example where horde players see Jaina killing blood elves who don’t attack her, but later Blizzard said that Alliance’s pov was the only correct one so whatever horde saw basically didn’t happen. Or that they completely retconned wrathgate, saying it was Sylvanas’ doing 10 years after it was made clear she was betrayed by varimathras.

Nothing about info from 2019 contradicts anything from Elegy, Good war, other novels and warbringers (yet). Therefore your argument that it was simply retconned holds no value, again.

She still burned Teldrassil to teach Delaryn a lesson and nothing will change that. Her motives only made her not regret that and face no consequences in the future, because she would have done something similar in the future anyway, but the short dialogue with Delaryn is what 100% makes this act a genocide.

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49

Ah no. I didn’t believe her sob story about being “betrayed” back then and I don’t believe it now.

She knew.

50

I didn’t believe her either but from the lore Blizzard gave us it 100% looked like they’re actually going with the plot of her being betrayed. Now they changed that so it fits her new character she got after WotLK, and even though it does fit her perfectly, a scummy cowardly spineless rat that uses blight to kill both factions… it is a dumb retcon that appeared after 10 years which just feels like a joke. It’s like your ex digging up what you did on the first date after 2 years of relationship

51

Yes but its not a retcon if her motives isn’t fully revealed. Her intentions in War of Thorns of starting the war is just a mask to the reader and not her real intentions to do so. What we have in Shadowlands only fills in the gaps or gives extra information to US as readers what her intentions were. Not giving full disclosure doesn’t mean retcon. One doesn’t contradict another.

As in War of Thorns she states she wants to start a war because of

And secure Azerite.

But in SL it is revealed that all of this is done to fuel her own agenda in Maw. It doesn’t cotradict the information provided back in WoT but given the real reason behind it.

It is just her using the Horde as the instrument for her own cause, which is what she has ever done since she was raised as undead (using others as an “arrows in her quiver”).

Because her starting war and inevitably sacrificing her own base of operations for a silly war she could barely win made little to no sense.

But her gambling on the war to secure her spot in Maw to fuel her and Jailers plans, is what would serve her goals no matter the outcome of warin BFA. It makes sense why she had thrown everything she had (even with Azshara and old gods) in Azeroth to stretch the casualties. Because like this she would never lose.

Her grown powers are also indication that she was set up to defeat Lich King and break the veil so Jailers forces were able to break free.

Her arc makes sense in the way that she goes full on about commiting to Jailers plans. There is no draw back.

Where it falls short is that is does the goal justifies her own redemption? Is what Jailer offers worth all this sacrifice?

Sylvanas arc is set up on someone who tries to escape the inevitable fate! Person who tries to avoid the consequences of her actions, someone who tries to create her own reality and defy rest of the world. Which does give a glimpse of understanding why she does what she did, but at the same time showcases how short she falls because of her own ignorance and magnitude of damage she brings to everyone around her in achieving her goals. The prize is not worth the sacrifice. And Anduin is the voice that tries to make her see the fault in her own logic.

This is why her own redemption (everyone is scared of) will be short lived, something that might satisfy only the fans but noone else.

52

There was never a retcon regarding Sylvanas and the Wrathgate. She never planned to attack the faction forces that battled there.
Some people took it as such because they wanted to pile on the negative stuff regarding Sylvanas background and decided to twist the wording being made to interpret it that way.

What Afrasiabi said back then, was that not everyone knew that Sylvanas had been somewhat involved, as she had designed the Blight that had been deployed there.

Those Horde players that chose Northrend’s “right wing” as their landing site, and followed the Hand of Vengeance onslaught, instead of the Warsong Offensive that landed in Borean Tundra, know this to be true.
They spend most of the time perfecting said Blight and using it against Vrykul and Scarlets.

But whether she had actually ordered Putress to use it against the Horde and Alliance, remains a big no.

She didn’t.

And novels as contemporary as Before the Storm and War Crimes, highlight the fact that she didn’t know about Putress ulterior plans regarding its usage, or the fact that he was in league with both Varimathras and Sargeras.

So yeah, surprisingly enough, in a setting that has recently tried to smear crap all over Sylvanas past and present, that bit remains as it was back then.
No, she wasn’t responsible for what happened to the factions in the Wrathgate.

53

Said she. I didn’t believe her then, and I don’t believe her now.

No, back then actually this kind of a sob story was still believable for her (even as someone who didn’t buy it back then I recognize it). She has not yet outed herself as a callous, selfish, and ruthless woman that she is today.

It’s just that there’s no way Putress could have developed such a plague without her knowing.

And if Putress “deployed” the plague without her knowing, that’s still on her because that’s how the chain of command works.

54

Well, to be fair here, we had inner monologues that somewhat clarified all sorts of circumstances that are now being challenged with the new batch of information regarding her motives.

In Before the Storm, she seemed to genuinely love the Forsaken. And in BfA she was apparently using them as tools.
She also respected Varian, Vol’jin, and even Saurfang. And now we are to take as if she was using the latter as pawns, and the held nothing but contempt for the former.

There is a long list to be pointed out here, but fact is, that it all comes from sources that live zero room to speculation, character mislead, or deceipt: most of it comes from thoughts she herself had.

So yeah, to a grander or lesser degree, there were definitely all sorts of retcons all over her character.

And same did Varimathras when he declared Putress was his pawn.

And not only did Sylvanas SAY so, but she THOUGHT so to HERSELF.

Again, unless you are assuming that the character is intelligent enough to breach the fourth wall to deceive readers, Before the Storm alone suffices to highlight how she in fact wasn’t aware of, nor intended to carry out, what happened at the Wrathgate with the Horde and the Alliance.

As i just wrote in said post, we all know that Sylvanas knew that the plague was being developed.
We, as PLAYERS, help her do so.

We also helped her test it on Vrykul and Scarlets. We helped her test the catapults that threw it. And we planned how to transport it to the Wrathgate.

What Sylvanas DIDN’T know, was the fact that Putress would use it against anyone other than Arthas or the Scourge and betray both the Horde and the Alliance to kill them all in the name of Sargeras.

55

Sorry but you believing something doesn’t make it true or not. If there is no link to prove it so. Or evidence. It might have been her no. It is still very shaky statement to stand on.

Stripping off the bias of course.

That’s not how betrayal really works though. She might have developed the plague for any other reason then that
But putress and Varimathras seizing the moment to use it for their own advantage and wiping their hands on her. Whatever horrible things she has done (including ordering to test the plague on living creatures like vrykul) its not set in stone she was aware of that plan.

56

So. A plague that kills anyone who isn’t Forsaken.

Tell me one reason to develop such a thing; that isn’t “Killing anyone who isn’t Forsaken”.

Or maybe she had it developed, but she’d never really use it, honest cross my heart?

57

It was in BFA that she first showed how willing she was to enforce her own rule against the rebel forsaken. How important it was for her to secure the grip of rule before her plans came to fruition.

Her own respect to characters doesn’t go against how she views them as tools. It was shown back then with Vareesa. Saurfang later and now Anduin. She seems to appreciate them as she sees them fit in her own plans. And strong characters are always desirable it they are suspectable to deceit.

58

It kills forsaken also, it kills living and the dead. And forsaken are dead, just because they are named forsaken doesn’t make them different.

And it was meant to be used against Lich King and anyone who stood against her goals.

59

Treating others as tools is not a sign of “respect”.

Source?

60

Hmm… your own measure of respect doesn’t equate of what is presented for character. It was showcased in War crimes how much she wanted to be with Varessa and how twisted her ways were to make her spend all eternity with her. Same with Saurfang or now Anduin - giving him fake choice to join her cause and see world as she does. That is the fault in Sylvanas’ character she has devoid all the moral boundaries and perceives things as she sees fit.

What source are you asking for. Wraith gate cinematic literally spills out for you “death to the living and death to the scourge” and no forsaken is different from scourge or risen. They don’t get immunity from the rest of the “species” because they were fortunate to break free from Lich Kings grasp. They were made from same source and they die same way.