Can rogue mage just for once be not viable?

PVP Arenas
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You do realise that Rogue/Mage (and I play it at semi high rating) loses to almost every other meta comp? Including feral/anything arms/hpal dk/hpal rogue/discpriest

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Less aids for sure. Nothing makes me go more cringing then seeing mage rogue. As WW its funny that a rogue alone can global me if i dont insi opener in the smoke.

Back in my days u kept it for this retarded ability called blind

Guess im a delusional boomer by now tho after all this time. Pvp is nothing more but a stupid dmg fiesta to make it fun for everyone and meanwhile i had never more ??? In my face then in bfa and especially s1 of shadowlands. Cuz RMP was always a pain in the butt but now it feels like u just die in 2 globals while heal saped and u stunlocked in smoke wondering to use trinket like a panic chicken or keep it for the old way of use against the aidscomb called RMX

Sadly i never felt any respect or appreciation towards ppl playing the 2 iconic troll pvp classes cuz its toxic to the very core. And grew in it over the years (like mage got stealth - rogue can restealth in 2 sec instead of 10 sec - alter time - spaming instant casts instead of casting(man i miss wotlk fire mage, that was respectable))

After 10 years of wow pvping only i went back to pve. Cant take the gameplay toxicity anymore neither the muscletrained RMX mains

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125

Umm… to be honest if my kill target trinkets blind or sap even before this expansion that was considered a good thing because- you have no stun dr wasted or did I just miss something about WW taking a full assassin kidney/bomb/vendetta in bfa that made it less lethal ? I’m pretty sure you had to.

If a rogue went in with 3 min cd bomb and all his CDs no matter what expansion you bring up, ether you or your team had to make a counter play , that is nothing new, in fact I feel like MOST classes burning multiple large offensive cooldowns generally are worth considering what you intend to trade - hell I know I’m considering what cds I trade if a monk lands stun with his clones+ other cds, because I’m certainly not thinking I’m gonna survive sitting it

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Ratio my friend ratio…

Mages and Rogues survived the pruning way better than other classes.

“tHeY tOoK 1 tHiNg FrOm Me WhIlE tHeY tOoK 3 fOr OtHeRs”

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127

always ez to say something like “blablabla is op”, i swear you’ll stack at 1600 as a rogue mage and instantly will back to forum to cry about other things lol

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I dont get what the hell this “they survived pruning better” is? Like every class has changed and rogue mage has changed just the same ? Explain the real difference your seeing because the way I see it, deep freeze was a huge redesign from blizzard to mage, taking away stun access to the class was not a small thing, same as instant ring of frost? When I was playing in cata there was no counter play to ring it was a gcd and simply had a 3 second animation before it activated, the fact you can kick it now and he cant do it running is not exactly a small change. Cone of cold root? Was a thing .

The mentions I just made about gouge , ask any rogue how much of a deal that actually was, it completely changed some situations that a rogue could deal with without support or a major cooldown ,

Every class has NEW abilities now since back when I started, has been pruned and given back new things that replaced old things, that’s the most bias argument I’ve ever heard lets be honest.

Warlock nearly every expansion has a good meta, but normally has a weak first season because the class scales better with stats as we all grow. I know because mained one from cata all the way to the end of legion . Are they also victimless of pruning and redesign because they always find a strong spec in a high tire comp every xpac ? I doubt you think so but they do

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For each one of those abilities, I can name double the amount of abilities classes like warriors and hunters have lost- Which is a bit ironic since now that warriors for example have a fraction of the kit they used to have, people are saying that they have too much.

But, since I already mentioned warriors, I might as well use them:

  • banners
  • charge stun
  • off gcd hamstring
  • baseline def stance
  • talent row for self heal/sustain
  • Anger management nerfed since its inception in WoD
  • Baseline disarm
    (edit)
    Shield wall

That’s already 6 things, and that’s just one class. I could mention others, but the point remains the same. Now, do I want rogues and mages to lose some parts of their toolkit? Ideally no, like you, I’d like everybody brought up rather have stuff removed, but if not then that is the alternative.

I think I agree with the premise that it’d certainly nice for once that RMP wasn’t an S-tier comp- But at the moment it feels just so oppressive. Even when you shut them down they have so many reset changes and goes that one mistake and you simply flop over- Especially since this doesn’t go both ways.

But I wouldn’t want them to be unviable, like I’ve stated several times in my posts.

The people who keep telling others to play their class before they pass on any judgement, which is, as said, a flawed argument.

All comps take skill to play, none of them is a free ticket to (insert arbitrary rating req. here).

Ah yes, the age-old “setup comps take more skill”, so by that notion every team should just be a setup comp. Okay.

Nevermind that these PVE comps as you put them have to survive the far more frequent goes of setup comps, nevermind the fact that they do not have as frequent goes as the setup comps, but thats alright. You could also forget to mention that “just trinket correctly bro” or that telling your teammates that “ok you cc him, I cc this guy, you cc this guy, they have no trinket, kill em” is more skillful than doing that exact same thing but outpressuring them.

You say that there is no arrogance, yet there clearly is.

Not true, some classes can go entire patch cycles without ever rising past B or A tier, yet lo and behold, rogues and mages are never below S tier. The spec might change but the classes have never been “bad”. Except maybe MoP when rogues were just a peg off of A tier.

See, everybody always says that RMP is good because it’s a high skill comp, but nobody ever mentions the fact that RMP’s synergy might be busted- And it has grown more busted as more training wheels have been added to it. Subterfuge, two shadowsteps, triune ward, cloaked in shadows, combo points being rogue rather than target specific, and shimmer being just the worst offenders.

And still, the normal distribution doesn’t lie. If Rogue Mage X is so skill-intensive comp, you’d see it plummet in popularity as ratings go up, as any other skill intensive comp would. But it doesn’t.

But hey, if you keep repeating to yourself that “ahh but it’s a skill intensive comp” instead of admitting that actually is no more skill intensive than any other comp and it’s strong because the inherent busted synergy between rogue and mage.

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130

They do, any setup based comp in WoW takes far more skill to play than any cleave. everything has to be coordinated, from the dmg to the CC or they don’t work. Cleaves on the other hand very little has to be coordinated and that’s why people refer to them as PvE comps.

Its the same for every class… its the specs that aren’t viable not the classes. Leys look at BFA quick, Enchantment wasn’t good through out, but Ele was very strong, Rsham was very strong. Same story with Rogue Mage, sometimes its Frost, sometimes Fire etc, same for Rogue… but the class is always viable and because all 3 specs are DPS allows Rogue Mage to be viable. Every class last expansion had 1 or more competitive specs.

You’d be surprised, I played into many RMP mirrors between 2100 - 2300, when I climbed above 2400 I saw much less of them, I mainly que into melee or caster cleaves at the moment. So there you go, as you go up you do see less RMP’s and that’s because the higher you go the cleaner you have to play and that means getting perfect cross CC vs whatever you face and every class can either peel or off heal at the moment. The skill gap in RMP comes from having to all coordinate landing cc at the same time, you can sit there and tell me “oh thats so ez mode” but go try it vs players that know what you want to do and when and will actively try and disrupt it.

Also I don’t know if you watched the a AWC but the best RMP in the game got farmed by a caster cleave and they barely even play it the AWC before this one due to it struggling into Warrior comps because of how easily a Warrior can shut down a Rogue and solo disrupt any go’s.

If you think a setup based comp takes the same skill to play as a melee or certain caster cleaves then you haven’t ever played a setup comp properly. I’m curious what comp do you play? Fire/SP/Hpally? SP/Lock/X?

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I just look at my rogues cooldowns and when I see his kidney going off, Ido my cross CC and deal damage. It wasn’t particularly challenging. We didn’t even use voice. Checking DR’s isn’t rocket science either. You can learn anything in this game properly if you just keep playing, looking over your games and looking for the mistakes you do.

You have to set up CC just like you do with RMP. The only difference is that since cleaves have less CC than RMP has, of course it compensates this with dealing more damage. But thanks to the CC, RMP also has more goes. It all balances out in the end.

Hold on, that’s not the same thing we were talking about. I wasn’t saying they weren’t viable. Anything is viable to technically whatever arbitrary rating you want to call out as the target (kind of like people complaining that x class isn’t viable for m+ when all of them can do +15’s).

But Mage and Rogue as classes are never below S tier. Whereas some classes can go through several patches without ever going past A or B tier, the aforementioned Demo locks and Enha shamans included.

…So because you experienced it one way, therefore it is so, yeah?

Aight. Not like RMP hasn’t made a show in literally every tournament the past, what, 8 years? More? And obviously (as I said) the representation goes down, but it should go down exponentially as the higher you go- Which, as said, it does not. Going down =/= going down exponentially. You still meet plenty of RMP’s in the said high ratings, for example I enjoy watching Stahp playing around 3k and he frequently runs into them. I also watch Anboni, who also happens to run into them, and several others.

By the very definition if the comp makes an appearance in a tournament after tournament, it is more than viable. They don’t play unviable comps in them. The fact that it loses (RMP to my knowledge has only ever won a couple tournaments?) has nothing to do with the argument: I never claimed it was the best. I did claim it is, tier after tier, S tier, which by the definition you yourself agree to is clearly the case.

I do not know why do I have to keep repeating this same point? I have played RPS. I have played with a mage. Hell, I even once played with a survival hunter and we did ok In all of those games, no better or worse as I’ve done with cleaves. I just prefer cleaves more because the playstyle of wearing down my enemies instead of doing surgical strikes every 20 seconds feels better to me.

But apparently simply because of my preference, that somehow makes my opinion wrong and/or less skilled, when the opposition has no arguments to pull out of their sleeve.

3 Likes
132

Sure, now do this when an enemy knows its about to happen and watch the different it has on your go’s. The higher you go the harder a setup comp is to play cleanly.

You do not have to setup up anything as a cleave, you throw out your instant CC and pop CDs and repeat. If an enemy used a def CD you swap over to the other DPS until that CD drops then go back.

Rogue is not S tier right now btw. The only competitive comps a Rogue has at the moment is RMP… You can see come success with Thug & RPS but their not that strong as the Rogue doesn’t deal much dmg outside of the burst windows as Sub, maybe Assa works better with them.

No, its not been in every tournament, RMX has though.

This is completely wrong by the way, some comps played in the tournaments are actually unviable on ladder but are very strong into 1 particular comp, thats why they get played… as a counter comp option.

But you all say that RMP/RMX has been dominating for X years? how can the most dominant comp ever lose to anything? hmm, guess its not as dominant as you think it is.

You mean it feels easier to PvE them down instead of having to do coordinated go’s every time, which it is by the way.

No argument? its literally easier to stand there as a cleave as PvE someone down than do clean setups off DR. You can’t fail at a PvE comp aslong as you just do dmg, you can fail as a setup comp quite easily… there for they are more punishing when people make mistakes. these PvE cleaves are far more forgiving for mistakes than setup comps are. That’s why they take more skill, there’s less margin for error with them, its really that simple.

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This goes for literally any comp, not just RMP. When I see that the DK’s cooldowns are coming off, I know he’s gonna do a sleet into grip into wyrm into bounce- So I fade pre-emptively. You learn to expect things from enemy team (you kind of have to, else you die), and certainly against RMP you can’t just play reactively, you have to play ahead of it.

…Which is exactly what you do as RMP? You wait till sheep, do cross cc and get a cooldown off of them/swap when they get a defensive/retreat and rince and repeat.

The only real difference is that RMP disengages to get another go, the others have to push in to not let that happen.

lol

By that exact line of argument you could say that Destro wasn’t strong in BFA because it only played (realistically) a couple of comps. Or any other of the dozen of examples.

True actually, I put P there as a mistake.

I have said that RMX has been an S tier comp for as long as I can remember, certainly Cata forward (with MoP having a small break because rogue was a bit weaker). Do you disagree?

“Coordinated go’s” aka watching when kidney comes off cooldown, getting a sheep off (which is not hard) and then doing a go while your healer cross cc’s the healer. Doesn’t mate it any more skillful.

This is the point. I have never denied that RMX takes skill to play. I just disagree with the notion of the RMX is somehow a more skillful comp because in reality having a go every 20 seconds is twice or thrice as often as many other comps can do their burst is word on word busted. Maybe there was a time like in Wotlk if you didn’t actually get that kill you were in big trouble because you could actually die- But these days you can vanish, shimmer, spam sheep and just reset over and again. Granted, the opponents have also gained more tools to deal with RMP, but the comp to this date does not have a hard counter, because it has no obvious weakness, save for running out of steam quickly and/or the players making mistakes, which is what every single other comp gets punished for anyway.

The PVE cleaves can take more “Mistakes” true, but they also have far fewer kill opportunities, or that kill opportunity is spread over a far longer distance than RMP’s is.

That is a trade off, not a difference in skill.

Cleaves play to wear their opponents down and are in result subject to more mistakes/plays, whereas setup comps do surgical strikes and can do them more often (And they have powerful cooldowns to outright avoid trouble), but in return they can not prolong games for very long and need to get results quick.

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Not really, RMPs go’s largely rely on the Mage getting a Poly on the healer. Which is a casted CC so its very obvious when its going to land and its not that hard to stop unless the RMP setup cleanly every time. But the Rogue needs to enable that kind if a setup with stuns… so he either needs Dance every time or he needs to get a restealth. If he has Dance you know its coming when the stun & poly DR drops so you can prepare for it, if he gets a re spreading out makes it hard for the Rogue to stun multiple people. There’s alot of ways you can make a clean go hard to achieve for an RMP, but look at how Skill Capped EU played into Methods RMP. Don’t think they got a single clean go and couldn’t kill anything due to it.

Again the CC on RMP is generally harder to land due to the primary form of CC being casted, cleaves generally have instant CC which is far easier to land as their little you can do to avoid it.

It does actually because you have to coordinated all of those with your teammate to make sure they all happen at the same time, if there’s a gap left in the stun the Mage can get kicked or stopped on poly, if there’s a gap between the DB/stun and poly the healer gets off a CD. If you don’t cover the off DPS the Mage gets stopped or he solo peels the go. There’s quite alot that can go wrong thats why there’s little margin for error, if something go’s wrong the go is more often than not useless and you won’t force anything. In this meta if you don’t make every go count your Disc is generally OoM inside of 3 maybe 4 mins depending on how well your team are able to avoid the dmg.

Yes they do have few kill opportunity’s, their entire comp works around surviving and out pressing to OoM or run them out of CDs… which is very easy to achieve. RMPs kill opportunity’s come from getting go’s that force CDs, if you have a go or 2 that don’t you can’t kill anything for quite sometime if the enemy rotates the defensive CDs well. This is why every go has to be clean, otherwise you fall behind very fast, currently its not hard for cleaves to disrupt RMP go’s, this is why you see it struggle alot vs Warrior & Shaman and Hpally teams, tons of disruption on with high amounts of Def CDs. You won’t kill anyone that knows how to rotate def CDs unless you run them out of CDs with your go’s or they make a mistake. Most setup comes work the same way, if the go’s aren’t good you fall behind fast currently. It was more forgiving for setups comps in BFA though, I will admit. Due to the vers stacking etc.

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RM, RMP historicly one of most easiest comp to play, if you ask me they shoud not be that viable, since skill required to play them is very low.

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So is fear, so is MC, so is cyclone, repentance etc… None of these are any harder to cast than the other. Mage also has multiple spell schools so they are not even punished that hard even if their poly doesnt land: They got freeze in the back for that. And even if you do get kicked/stopped, there is only so many goes that they can stop you with. Youcould say taht “well, we need to fake cast”, which, again, goes for any other team too. RM isn’t any more special in that regard.

Neither of which is hard to do, especially in this meta and subterfuge is incredibly forgiving anyway. Dance is also on a low cooldown.

This goes for any other cc/burst ability in the game, priest included.

I never said that it was impossible to do so. You can shut down cleaves too very well if you can bait out their kicks and cc, so you get free hands, so again, this is nothing special.

Equally, if the other team doesn’t rotate their cooldowns, position and trinkets absolutely 100% perfect, they die. So again, where is the magic element that makes RMP so much harder? All the things you’re listing happen in other comps too, just in a different way as said.

So, as I said already, it turns out that the skill requirement is the exact same, and whether you prefer wearing your pponent down or setting them up for a kill is purely a preference thing.

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dang, guess all melee cleaves should be unviable by that standard too then, huh?

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Its actually simple to make this less aids for everyone. Either put sap/blind in the same dr with sheep or just dr sheep with stuns. Less afk watching how u get zugzuged in 2 globals less annoying to play against and more joy playing vs it.

By no means i hate pvp overall since BfA cuz blizz shows the middlefinger to all that enjoyed pvp by adding so much pve dmg into it be it back then azerite, essences and on top corruption or now corruption 2.0 but converted into just retarded class dmg.
So literally everytime i see a pala mage or rogue its just like “cool ill get pved by bubbled enemy - afk cc chain enemy - reset if failed like a retard over and over enemy”

Atm playing monk only since cba playing warri to much after 4 xpacs. And there i feel it heavely how u get zugzuged bdfore u can zugzug back. Its even more sad u use karma and demping still u just die to row dmg while heal is shutdown.

Byside trinket the stun on rmp opener makes me feel like 70 iq

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Im not going to continue to explain to you why cleaves take less skill than setup comps do. You obviously have your mind made up and nothing I can say will change that. So its a pointless discussion, have fun.

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I haven’t really been following the discussion and haven’t seen the video in question, but simple damage rotation doesn’t mean a spec is easy to play by default. This isn’t PvE and you cannot just do the rotation to win games. Especially with setup-based classes/comps.

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You need to land cc at the right time since one class alone can peel every go. Not to mention that there’s lot of telegraphing if you know what to look for.

Your anecdote of silence has… nothing to do with this. Not even sure why you even wrote about it. Other than proving my point of how the set up needs to coordinate their cc or the go is lost. So… thanks?

I recall you admit it yourself.

I was wondering why this toxic thread was still going on, and yeah, surprise, I still see walls of text from someone creating theories about something he doesn’t know anything about. I’m reminded why I decided to ignore it.

Besides, when starting doing 3’s in WoD rmp wasn’t among the best comps, it was rare to meet mirrors back then, it was rmd that was the deal. But I’m willing to bet people don’t understand the difference between the comps so… yeah.

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funny, that the only comp I got over 2700 ever was me playing rmd on my mage it is really hard to play 3v1, when you land good ccs

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