I stopped reading after he mentioned "when rogues kindey is off cooldowns " because I already learned from that statement he dont actually know how RMX works. Just ignore him if hes gonna argue a set up that he doesn’t understand the basics of and wants to simplify it to an ideal situation where the other team are target dummies with no cooldowns
Here is the truth, cleaves ARE easier due to being able to win a attempt though errors on your push for a kill, you always land pressure. The only cleave I’d argue isn’t like that is rot com caster cleaves , because they work on a premises of trying to deny hard trades like a reverse of what RMX does, attempting to draw out the game until a win condition is available is it it self it’s own skill at reading the game and knowing how to out resource the other team, you never saw affli/rot class/healer win by yolo damage meters in a serious game- they played defensive until the damage is actually lethal
Not sure but RMX isn’t really a super strong comp right now… Nor is RM…
They do go together good and is a very viable spec but nowhere near as some here say.
I can also then say… Warrior/healer has been meta since TBC… nerf??
AWC also has proven that RMX os nowhere near the domination as some here say… Pala … yes… Mage… Yes… warrior . Yes…
When watched AWC in BFA… sad to say… I saw only 2 rogues overall in BFA and 1 RMX team and they got sh… On… Now please…
Blind = Dragons breath … same DR…
Sap = Sheep … Same DR
Sap usable on targets out of Combat + it does not remove bleeds … dots etc… so you would fail right here…
Clueless ppl are clueless…
No. blind, sap and sheep should absolutely not all be on the same DR, and stun should not DR with sheep either. That is just a dumb suggestion for obvious reasons.
This is the same thing for every single class. Whether it’s telegraphing that enemy paladin is running in for a HoJ, shaman is rooting you for a hex or anything else. Mages aren’t unique in this regard.
Tool to help you play better =/= Improving skill.
I said I’ve played with setup comps. I have climbed with them just fine, but I prefer rot-comps or cleaves simply because I enjoy the playstyle of wearing down my opponents more than setting up surgical strikes. But apparently simply because I enjoy one playstyle to another it proves that I am not good enough with it. More great arguments at 10 when you’ll enlighten us all how enjoying the game and skill are somehow the same thing, but I digress. Thanks for lending me your head rent-free all this time.
You say you ignored it, yet here you are, ranting about me as you did in the previous post. But, as previously, you don’t actually have any arguments to bring to the table so you just resort to insulting my person. Nothing’s changed.
Do you disagree with the premise? Kidney shot is the main cc on the kill target- Therefore, it is the condition that will secure the kill. All you need before that is have a cc on the healer (typically it’s either freeze or sheep), while your healer cross cc’s the last dps. And even if they somehow avoid it, sometimes can’t even peel for the other dps or healer: I can, I am a priest. But not every other class can.
If it is the truth, then why is it that none of you has answered the point that RMX by it’s whole design is centered around closing games quickly and abusing any mistake the enemy team makes into a 100-0 in cc. Meanwhile cleaves can’t do that, due to the resetting capabilities and very powerful defensives rogues and mages have. True, they can’t survive many of those counter attacks, but they will have 1-2 chances at each turn to end you before you get there.
Now, here’s the thing. I have, throughout this thread, said that I do not deny that RMX takes skill. Obviously it does. But here’s where I disagree: I do not think that it is, fundamentally, any harder to play a setup comp than it is a cleave comp. And you even see this very plainly in the comp representation. Yes, cleaves are prominent, but equally so are setup comps. Pick a streamer, any streamer. Whatever rating. Duelist, 2,4, 3k, doesn’t matter. There’s comps of both kind in there in even numbers.
If RMP and setup comps were so skill-intensive, again, their numbers would fall off exponentially the higher you go in skill rating. But, they do not. They’re still there, so much so that RMP makes a show in every single arena competition in the past 8 years.
I wouldn’t do anything anymore with DR’s actually- I think they are more or less stretched enough as it is. And I honestly don’t know if anything should be even done.
One thing that could be done is that DR’s 'd be changed so that, say, 1st sheep is still the full 8 second cc. But the next is only 2 instead of 4. And the 3rd is immuned. This’d mean effectively snapping cc chains quite drastically down, as it’d affect both casted (but repeatable) and instant (but cd) cc, and the immediate impact’d be that people’d sit less in CC.
I’m unsure if it’d be healthy for the game, but it could be tested.
Okay so first off , kidney on kill target was bfa , that’s assassin territory to think that every kill window with RM on main target is set up with a kidney shot on kill target, sub doesn’t always want to do this, its very possible to focus kill target with a rotation using cheap shots that dont leave breaks between for gcds. It’s a very situational thing on if you want to CS or kidney which I’m sure plenty of sub mains could write paragraphs of info on when they find it better to do one or the other.
Which leads me to my point of - if you was basing your read of what the RMX will do purely off when kidney is off cooldown you are likely gonna lose unless it’s an assassin rogue meta, its completely possible to make a go with multiple RMX set ups with no kidney involved. assuming DRs are down for stuns and poly/sap or blind based on a number of variables (class cooldowns/trinkets/positioning)
Like I said I have played the other side of the coin with rot com set ups, its not like I wanna devalue that there is still a difference between 2400+ cleave and and 2k cleave , they are obviously better at the class with better awareness and knowledge. Let’s be honest though some classes are just “easier” than others to climb with- I know in WoD I could climb with DK a lot easier than I could my main because its win condition was so much simpler with less pressure on me to do achieve, I spent ages during that expansion trying to climb on my demonology warlock (when it was decent not this trash we have now) yet I had very little experience on DK and just found the rating came for free because all I needed was to do good damage and know where to throw it mostly.
anyone who has played against low mmr RM will think it’s easy mode because you dont have to be great at it below 1600 mark as people make larger mistakes and dont counter your set up, at 1500 you can literally play rogue mage with sap heal nuke dps and the dps likely won’t use that first gcd to counter the go based on the first sap to ruin the go, at higher mmr you have to change the game to trying to block as many outs as possible they have to shutting down the go and the way you play inevitably changes because the same strait forward tactics dont work. Also people wont let a rogue reset for free as you climb and punish a rogue with no vanish or other outs so even if he does escape he left losing cooldowns he really needed for a go after.
I personally dont rate RM as “the most complex comp to play” and I wont attest to it being the hardest but its certainly a lot harder to be legit good at than people give it credit for, the difference between the average player trying to set up RM vs people who really know is huge, the gos they make are next level in how they manage cooldowns and exploit the kit with little detail that you just can’t expect from the majority, a lot of players who really enjoy it and are climbing probably dream of being able to land some of the insane plays you see from R1 players because they make it look so damn easy
Final point to make… RMX isn’t ACTUALLY S tire right now, I mean it’s a strong A tire but- rogue is currently the weaker wheel vs other alternatives and the only ones who are playing it purely at top rank are teams that have likely mained this comp for a long time together because double mage is stronger, monk/mage/hpala is arguably stronger and some other comps are, rogue is kinda lower S tire purely because it works WITH an s tire class
One could answer to this argument that the current top playerbase, which is mostly unchanged as time goes on, prefers to play intelligent and rewarding comps as they have the skill level for it rather than “zug zug hit everything without using all your skill and knowledge” comps.
I’m not saying it is the case, but it’s as valid as your argument, so either mine is valid, or yours isn’t. You may pick.
I’ll answer: it is unhealthy. Any idiotic comp that just has to tunnel down to win through pure damage like WW Ret would actually get so much uptime that the game would become an even greater PvE race in the arena than it already is.
Actually the argument of "there is more at the top of ladder must be easier " is proven false logic in a number of skill based pvp games, were as the rankings go up some more complex choices are considered more viable. League of legends actually has a “best at low elo” and “best at high elo” list because some picks that are super easy to dominate with on low skill level start to fall off against better players who react differently, and some complex champions with high skill floor get more value and success with a better more responsive team. This logic applies to lots of games, even in wow we have always had the logic that some off meta picks or comps can climb assuming basic player skill a little before you start meeting teams who will exploit what your comp lacks, I mean I managed to push my lock to 1900 in 2s bfa playing with a mage facing some actual comps but obviously after a certain point you start to need a “real set up” because players wont let you recover and will have greater awareness on how to exploit what you cant deal with.
Some comps will be easy push to 2k, easier than a RMX, but struggle at 2400 because people know how to get there win condition better, or how to block your condition faster. Why do you think lots of ret paladins who have high exp call there class a wheelchair? Because in low mmr people let them waddle over and slap them without making good choices to hinder the guy , less dispels on freedom, more people rely on ‘spray and pray’ cooldown strategy hoping the other guy isn’t fast enough. In high mmr ret has a harder time because more people punish the guy for his lack of real mobility, and the ret isn’t anywhere near as free to just rush without being kited
The point is - if a comp shows up more at high mmr that simply means it’s more viable at that skill level - I dont buy anyone at 2400+ is BAD at the game, regardless of if there comp is easier or harder to play the reason they are there is they are playing a strong set up and know how to play it
Having goes stops with a 30 sec cd means more for a set up comp than a dampening comp. You are on a timer, that’s part of the skill check.
I don’t know what this means, and I don’t care. Your argument was pointless. It had nothing to do with you doing cross cc with your teammates, it was just showing what happens when the set up team fails at landing cc correctly.
I ignored it, hence the delay in response. I decided to ignore the thread since it from the very starting post was toxic, I see it’s still going on. When I get in here I see you still arguing with people with far more experience of playing the comp (the mage, so you don’t start accusing me from suffering from hubris) so I decided to respond to your post.
No, I provide arguments, but you either don’t understand them or simply ignore them. The mage did draw the right conclusion, you are not interested in listening, you are just convinced your viewpoint is the correct one no matter what others say.
Doesn’t matter if you climbed or not, I recall you saying didn’t like cc’ing and doing damage at the same time, you rather wanted to just focus on one thing, cc’ing.
So yeah, you failed one skill check there. If saying this breaks your ego, so be it.
You mean the paladin, literally walking at you at 50% movement speed , glowing like a beacon of christ almighty with wings up on his steed (but still slowed because freedom got dispelled, props if you have the elekk glyph that announces your go even harder, this is the veteran difficulty of wow) is telegraphed?
It’s too subtle man. Landing a poly with 2 blinks to chase around pillars (that still don’t interrupt casting, sadge) is way harder. Then landing RoF on a borderline stationary target. Uh. The pain! Of actually kind of having to aim for an ability than it just having be lock-on.
Huntertraps, however. Those things are guaranteed. Hit them them everytime, just like poly. If your opponent moves as if he just had 30 shots of vodka you’re out of luck though.
Rerolled from Hunter to warrior. Why go through the effort of trying to perfectly scattershot each and every charge of a warrior if you can just BE the warrior pressing W and condem/mortal strike off cd and win the game by default because of dampening aka the “if the melee hits any of your teammates for an extended period of time you win the game” mechanic.
I figured out how to play warrior in a melee cleave btw. Condemn possible? Y/N
Y= Condem
N= Shapren MS
Using the utility of arms (which is more utility than ret btw) isnt even required to climb is what I found.
What do you mean with that? Setup comps are more difficult to execute than cleaves? If thats the argument, sure, that’s true.
I believe jungle is harder than RM in that aspect however. Though I have to acknowledge that Jungle (with surv) has the rot aspect going for it aswell ontop of setups.
Neat point. At around 1,4 people don’t die to “shadowblades all cds” openers anymore for example. Atleast most of the time.
Because at higher ratings everyone knows that when the wheelchairman starts glowing yellow you have to run, hide, behind the pillar until it is over and he hits like a noodle again. If you don’t you will die through all cds.
True. I think the thing mainly irking people is that RM has always been (and possibly always will be) pretty damn viable at all casual skill levels, especially if coordinated with a friend.
Being viable at all skill levels is not a sign of bad design though which feels like what people are trying to get at, it’s the best example of a comp that has always been “good” together but that’s not the same as “the best” comp every season, like RMX isn’t the strongest right now for a mage.
There ARE other less consistent examples of strong comps in 2s and 3s that re-emerge over time, they simply dont always because of various reasons
the comp relies on a specific spec being meta (LMx) does better when destro is strong
shadowplay does better when affection is meta
warrior/lock/shaman has been a regular slightly below S tire but above average when played well in a lot of expansions, its stood the test of time nearly as well
some classes are constantly R1 capable every expansion but suffer with scaling habits that they often play better ether early or late into the xpac are they bad design to? I’m yet to remember a single xpac where my warlock was considered “unviable” but I also know season one of every expansion is generally the worse
no it isn’t. Keep in mind I am not arguing againt RM here. It’s just hat RM has always been viabel at multiple (just not all (aka. the higher) skill levels).
2.1k Warrior telling other people their delusional. hahah, quite funny. Warriors overloaded utility has no place in this game… but sure, Rogue Mage though, bane of WoW.
Anyone actually stop to consider it from the other point of view? both class designs work very well together, people should be asking Blizzard to improve the design of other classes so they can have similar synergy when played together.