Classic pvp

[Veratyr-bloodfang]

Haha. Hero

[Miylee-darksorrow (Miylee)]

@Harp-dreadmist

Such a missed opportunity, if they had just separated pugs and premades it could have been incredible.

And not Classic.

@Harp-dreadmist

Premades do not suit a large portion of the players and a HUGE portion of servers.

The game design in general doesn’t suit a lot of players. Classic isn’t a one size fits all game, you either enjoy it or you don’t.

@Harp-dreadmist

Private servers kept premades and pugs apart and it worked brilliantly, there is literally a president for this actually working in the real world.

The separate queues in private servers caused more complications than what we currently have now.

@Hotrats-hydraxian-waterlords

Note that both PUGs and premades are social groups. Do you think premades are more “social” than PUGs? I don’t think so, they are temporary constellations of egos that want to reach rank 14 as fast as possible. Nothing particularly social about them.

You’ve come to this conclusion based on what, exactly?

All the people I’ve seen with R14 achieved it via their guild, guildies that they still play with.

[Vfvf-transcendence]

premades are rankers, they want to be done sunday evening the LATEST in order to be able to react to BBs.

if you are solo, just Q AB or WSG on Mon-Wed and you will be ok. as someone else mentioned , if you have to do other days, Q outside of main hours.

as a fun thought: why not get in touch with your local server ranking grp? they will be happy to have you. premades are not as close-knit-sect as you think they are.

and finally - most premades are just random ppl from the same server. nothing special about them, and you should try to win anyway.

OFC if you see an Alli Marshal Druid amongst their ranks, just go afk - its hopless

[Hotrats-hydraxian-waterlords]

@Miylee-darksorrow

You’ve come to this conclusion based on what, exactly?

All the people I’ve seen with R14 achieved it via their guild, guildies that they still play with.

Based on playing a lot of premades (both guild and mixed guild) 2004-2007.

People don’t create premades to be social, they premade because they must to or get an advantage (there are exceptions ofc).

I have not premade during classic so it may have changed since then but this is my perception of things. But maybe going from crappy TeamSpeak codecs to Discord changes things !?

[Miylee-darksorrow (Miylee)]

I believe discord communities change quite a lot, many of my guildies have premaded with each other and with other communities and have had no bad experiences.

When we transferred away from Firemaw, a few of our guildies even stayed behind to remain in their premade team.

[Bewarê-frostmane]

@Hotrats-hydraxian-waterlords

Note that both PUGs and premades are social groups.

Now you don’t even know what you’re talking about. Social groups refers to people with a social relationship in place. Even if it is only to be a pug premade for the moment, they at least went through a normal way to form a group. They’ve also got a working social currency in place.
Automated groups however, by the solo queue option, don’t go through any of that, and there’s no social currency. That isn’t really a social group, that’s just pure strangers who happens to be working towards the same goal as long as nobody randomly gives up, or is distracted by a flower, or whatever.

inb4 some1 asks what social currency is, there are a few ways you can use the term, but it basically refers to the power of your influence. Which includes a lot of factors, such as trustworthiness, social standing and so on.
In the context of this post, it refers to the implied social standing as a group. Which doesn’t exist in many of the automatically matchmade groups, in a gigantic matchmaking pool.

The mere fact that people are from the same server means there’s more social currency, since you’ll basically lose trust or build trust through recurring encounters and defining events, which the simple fact of being from the same realm makes possible.

[Kemurai-argent-dawn]

@Bewarê-frostmane

See, the most frequent problems in Classic PvP is caused by the ability to queue alone .
Solution: Make BGs only available to full premades.

It’s not like everyone has time to play for hours of premade BGs.
They just want to log on and do a couple of quick BGs for fun PvP.

Solo queue and premade going separate would be perfect, as I thought it’s about the social part for the premaders, not maximum honor per hour right?

[Hotrats-hydraxian-waterlords]

@Bewarê-frostmane

Now you don’t even know what you’re talking about.

Wow! Snarky and hostile in almost every response. Sorry I don’t have time to engage in your pseudoscientific drivel. You take yourself too serious man! Goodbye

[Bewarê-frostmane]

@Kemurai-argent-dawn

It’s not like everyone has time to play for hours of premade BGs.
They just want to log on and do a couple of quick BGs for fun PvP.

Ok, let’s follow that hypothesis a bit further, shall we?

1. Right now premades are mainly about the HPH or just securing an increased chance to win, because the needs of the ones queuing “for the moment” is being met with the braindead convenient choice instead. Which, as already explained many times over, comes with a lot of bad consequences.
2. So by shutting down the braindead option, you’d still have those players wanting to PvP. But of course, they didn’t choose to play in a premade for the HPH or whatever, so they’re doing it for other reasons. So they’ll naturally sort themselves into their own cliques of premades who only does it for the same reasons they were queuing solo, BUT! Their social bonding would be better, since there’s room for remembering recurring encounters like that. It’d create a positive feedback loop that builds itself up over time.
3. With premades being the only option, the amount of “casual pvpers” would naturally seek to form their own pugs, although there’d undoubtedly be those who quits just because they’re childishly defiant.
   So the amount of pug premades would increase. By a lot. And since these premades would have to fill their pugs to queue, and those randomly leaving, it’d be like a spinning door-kind of effect, where you’d get your pick as a lone player which premade you want to join for the moment, instead of needing to prove your worth to them.
   Over time, the familiarity would grow, and there’d be proper social bonds forming eventually.

Meanwhile, everyone it would involve has time to play at least one game. That’s at the very least. The AFKers shouldn’t be queuing anyway, so they’d just lose their ability to leech is all.

Moreover, they’re also not entitled to everything in the game. But they’ve at the very least had time to level to 60, so you can presume there be some kind of freedom involved there.

Also, people pug raids all the time, every week. That’s even harder to fill and organize than just a 10-man or a 15-man, so people definitely have time for something.

[Bewarê-frostmane]

@Hotrats-hydraxian-waterlords

Wow! Snarky and hostile in almost every response. Sorry I don’t have time to engage in your pseudoscientific drivel. You take yourself too serious man! Goodbye

Thanks for sharing your ignorance instead of addressing the points mentioned. Byebye.

[Overcomb-mirage-raceway]

@Bewarê-frostmane

Thanks for sharing your ignorance instead of addressing the points mentioned. Byebye.

He did. By dismissing them all.

[Bewarê-frostmane]

@Overcomb-mirage-raceway

He did. By dismissing them all.

More like he was just saying “Me no comprendo!” but in a defiant way, without saying anything of substance about the points mentioned.

[Harp-dreadmist]

Worked well on a private server that had constant engagement from GM’s. I do not know what level of input was required in order to maintain the pug v pug and premade v premade but I wouldn’t know because I am not privy to that.

Why wouldn’t 10 bots be able to premade then?

[Bewarê-frostmane]

@Harp-dreadmist

Worked well on a private server that had constant engagement from GM’s. I do not know what level of input was required in order to maintain the pug v pug and premade v premade but I wouldn’t know because I am not privy to that.

Ok, well, hate to break it to you, but premade exploits are still a thing. Separating them would just make the solo queue-separation vulnerable to it, thus making it entirely meaningless.
Not to mention the problem with bots and AFKers. Which, as you put it, GMs were active on that pserver (presumably), while Blizzard leave it up to solving things with systems rather than with manual labor. So you’d just be inviting disaster based on something that can’t even be compared in the first place.

@Harp-dreadmist

Why wouldn’t 10 bots be able to premade then?

@Bewarê-frostmane

Simply put, they operate by queuing as scripted in the bot. If there’d be no option to solo queue, even if they’d change the script to have bots queue together, they’d still be unable to win because bots aren’t better than real players.

Ergo, by logical conclusion, they’d be unable to earn honor and reputation by making it into premade-only.
Another thing you can deduce from that, is that the only reason bots and AFKers are a thing in Classic BGs, is due to the automatic matchmaking of teammates. Remove that, and then they’ll naturally disappear from the ecosystem.

AFKers would be blacklisted, and bots aren’t exactly social enough to enter actual premades.

@Bewarê-frostmane

Also, how much did it require out of the GMs, if you can find that source to back up your claim? Because pservers tend to be known for “hands-on” admins keeping things under control, while Blizzard is kinda doing the exact opposite. So for Classic WoW, you can’t compare the two. You need to keep in mind that it needs to work without the need for GMs, for it to work in Classic.

The daily instance cap for example. It’s because they don’t have the job instructions in place to properly police their own servers.

[Tykaine-hydraxian-waterlords]

I played a PvE server is Vanilla that oddly had a huge PvP community, you could form small groups of friends, larger premades, queue solo and have a good time either way.

My experience in Classic is none of my friends want to queue BGs, they don’t see PvP as a part of the game. It’s just a 3-hour-a-week raiding simulator.

I did join a premade earlier this year, and the people in the group hated each other. These weren’t friends playing for fun, they were grouped together out of convenience. They wanted their Rank 12-14 epix as soon as possible do they can deal a tiny bit more damage in raids with Frostbolt/Shadowbolt button.

That’s what PvP in Classic is.

[anon57183615]

I like your idea, however I’m not sure it would not lead to the end of all BGs.

Just think about it: there would be 20x more horde premades than alliance. That would lead to 20x longer queue on horde side, that would lead horde players staying in raid for several hours without playing a single game. No fun.

To fix that blizzard would need to introduce cross-server grouping. Then players could organize their premades through discord and enter together from different servers increasing the number of premades and reducing queue.

It would be even better to limit the premade size to 2/3 of the BG team size.
For example the premade maximum would be 30 for AV, 10 for AB and 7 for WSG.
Also premade leaders would be able to kick any members of the team (including solo players) from the BG, but the system would not fill up the empty spot so abusing actively participating solo players would not worth it.
This way people could still sign up solo, but since the game requires a premade to start, the solo queue time would be significantly longer (even on alliance side) and people would be motivated to find a premade instead of soloing.

[Bewarê-frostmane]

@anon57183615

Just think about it: there would be 20x more horde premades than alliance. That would lead to 20x longer queue on horde side, that would lead horde players staying in raid for several hours without playing a single game. No fun.

You can’t predict that. Yeah, Horde has had more PvPers in general, but at the same time I’d argue Alliance has shown a general stronger desire to seek out premades for their PvPing in BGs, overall.
So presuming only premades, all you can really predict is those that will still want to PvP even without the braindead convenience will do so, while others who thinks they got slapped in the face will quit PvP out of sheer defiance.

Can’t really know how many that’d be on either side, nor what the total amount on each faction of people queuing would be.

@anon57183615

It would be even better to limit the premade size to 2/3 of the BG team size.
For example the premade maximum would be 30 for AV, 10 for AB and 7 for WSG.
Also premade leaders would be able to kick any members of the team (including solo players) from the BG, but the system would not fill up the empty spot so abusing actively participating solo players would not worth it.
This way people could still sign up solo, but since the game requires a premade to start, the solo queue time would be significantly longer (even on alliance side) and people would be motivated to find a premade instead of soloing.

That actually seems like it holds a lot of promise. I’m all for advocating for more people-controlled social rules, rather than the garbage automated right-click system. Because the automated right-click system is a big part of the problem in randomly matchmade teams in BGs as they are right now.

[Agile-bloodfang]

Just find friends and do a premade

[Nedstark-shazzrah]

The whole system is flawed. Completely. Premades aren’t made for pvping, they are made to farm honour per hour. You get straight up kicked if you don’t throw and lose a bg on purpose when there is so much as a hint early on that it may be a long game. Bad for honour per hour apparently

I joined a pre-made group for pvp and it was the most boring experience ever. We either steamrolled pugs, steamrolled pre-mades who then gave up straight away, or got steamrolled by pre-mades. When we actually got a decent evenly matched game all the ranking spergs would start crying that their honour per hour was going down and we would be told to “feed”.

The best shot at any decent PVP is world PVP out in contested farming spots. Dueling outside SW or Org is also good as most of the people play fair and introduce certain CDL rules that evens the playing field for all classes. One time 5 or 6 horde players made their way over to SW and someone posted on world chat that we should greet them at the front of SW thinking that they wanted to start ganking ally. They didn’t attack any of us unprovoked and just wanted to duel and we all did. It was fun!

[Emiliaclarke-mograine]

This has been my biggest letdown of classic. I just want to join bgs and have some fun. But premades and lack of action from Blizzard ruined that completely.