Is that still true for 2h frost?
Yes it is, however, 2-H is a little bit behind and DW is performing slightly better, unfortunately imo. 
At this point Iām waiting to see once Iām 60 and have a little bit of gear. Prepatch was a bust for 2h true but since there is now light at the end of the tunnel Iāll hold off on the doom and gloom until Iām at the bottom of the meters.
Firstly, theres that circular logic again, if prepatch does not matter why did they slap that last minute nerfs on us 2 days before it hit? and then it would be cool if other classes where fixed/nerfed down as someone else mentioned? nah thats not okay etc etc but as suddenly as it is frost DKās that slightly overperforms it has to be nerfed before prepatch, theyve nerfed this crap hard in other prepatches hard before, BFA UH was slapped hard, but now it does not matter you dumb parrot?
Also dont appeal to authority or attack someones personal achievments to give yourself OR your so called smart clique of people more clout, it is clear blizzard is never consistent and plays favorite and allows certain classes free reign to have fun within some time limits but as soon as DK even comes nears the big boy fun table we get slapped hard because ???
and indeed you can even call me an angry overreacting little man that needs to control himself and yadaydayda and all that smugness but iāve had enough, ive had enough of apologists afraid of the lash of blizzā¦or favored status or simply no passion for this class, and what it has been (not the Wrath release version, that was insane, and was fixed for good reason) but now every single person more or less that has a voice or pedestal just apathethically accepts these nerfs and broken promises and abuse like a crying housewise in delusion that love will come soon, because hey, he brought you flowers that one time before beating you an hour later as the bipolar scum he is, THAT is the problem here, and when some other content creators have the gall to bring this to light, that things could be better and this is not okay they get backstabbed by our own so called brethren playing this classā¦although i would not call BoS fanboys brothers ever again.
Are you that content to sit middle low of everything. to accept it and to somehow delude yourtself that it is fun? that you enjoy raidlogging and do your Perfect BoS play and then farm out some gold for flasks to then do it again next week?.. are you so deluded that our entire PvP presence is an honor talent that needs people to not only bunch up, but to stay bunched up for 4 plus seconds before it can do likewise damage to what a flashtepping rogue using two buttons can do within 2 seconds? This entire spec is a mess and an abbhorent abomination thanks to people NOT rocking the boat hard enough so that even the jaded devs hears us as our voices flood over every single social media until it can finally reach themā¦or their bosses so that this situation of the people in charge of our beloved spec and in some ways class can be replaced by real people with passion, like the ones that amde the class before wrathā¦ speaking of wrath, let me tlel you something about wrath beta, i was in it, i tested DK, every spec methotically, one build we where even more Op than in wrath release, and in one build we did so little damage a green trinket with a proc did half our damage, many builds and testing the waters to what felt good in the flow of the class, how to get it to work within balanced parameters, compare that to now when the devs are so deluded with their Diablo training that they build a crumbling house of borrowed bricks and wonder why it collapses because the basement is rotten and neglected and has been for 7 years now, so dont come here and speak about how certain people dont deserve to voice their feelings or opinions on this class and how it performs, I dont like overreacting vitriol spewing people either, especially when you try to calm them down but hey look at me, im doing the very thing right now because enough is enough, it has gone to far for to long!
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Theyāve nerfed 2H Frost because of performance on Beta, nothing to do with Pre-Patch whatsoever. The quicker people learn that the better.
Well its generally well known if people have the proper achievements then they should know what they are speaking about in terms of performance. How come the high ranking/mythic raiding DKs on Acherus have no issues with these nerfs but the majority of normal players are QQing?
All Iām saying and have been saying is wait until the expansion actually launches before you make all these rage threads.
PS; if you go to my profile and look at my Frost Talents, you will see Iām not using BoS because I donāt like it.
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this is what you are not getting, if balance did not matter in beta why push out the nerf at any cost? while clear MORE BROKEN classes that most assuredly needed more attention than our ābig scaary 2 hand oblit that is a danger to our democracyāahem balanceā, that is why i react as i am, it feels and looks like a targeted overnerf just cuz, and i just cant be bithered to go into it anymore beause i have wrote other posts about it, I share the hope that things will be nice once we actually get to play SL and see for ourselevs but im dreadfully sorry when Legion for 2 patches or more was trash for frost bar BoS, when BfA was such a shietshow that it actually gave me a stomach ulcer in how much they could ruin what they have managed to create when legion ended, lets see if being happy little silent chained dogs will work AGAIN. hmm?
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People, understand that they ask these people a lot of work, do they want to make them think? , to stress ? , that they work? by god what are you thinking, be more considerate, HAHAHAHAJAJAAJA.
PS: look at that IQ they must have, to the point that classes like the paladin and the sh priest are too op and do not nerf that, by God, lack professional people to work in their country?
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What are you even speaking about? āIf balance didnāt matterā ??? Thatās what Beta is about. Getting the balance correct. You have completely ignored the fact I said the Pre-Patch does not matter. It was a Beta related change that came to the Pre-Patch.
2H was overperforming by a large margin so they brought it down. Thatās all there is to it.
According to acherus it was DW obliteration builds that were performing the best. The 5% off of the 2h build seems unnecessary. Also classes have been nerfed before in the prepatch just have a look back to assassination and unholy in BFA. The only difference was rogue was fine once BFA was released and unholy was garbage for the 1st half of S1 and had to get major changes. Point is blizzard can and do balance just because of prepatch performance. They have done so in the past.
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i dont think anyone truely knows whats āoverperformingā massively in Betaā¦ iāve seen litterally every class in the game do 2k+ More DPS then every other optionā¦ convenants and More making such a huge difference in DPS Defintly does make the numbers sooo skewed.
you can be SOmething like a Outlaw Rogueā¦ if ur using a bad covenants ur mid tier DPS with BiS Equipt are simply going to OutDPS you. Howeverā¦ i wouldnt say i saw much with 2handed Frost Overperforming.
Heres the true answer and imho i do really beleive its the case.
SMF, 2handed Monk and 2handed Frost were brought back to bring hype around the game itself, i mean lets go back to WoD. was 2handed Competitive throughout with DW Frost?.. no it werent. The Devs WANT frost to Dual wieldā¦ so the people balancing this class are Bias.
and people can argue a āwhy would they introduce It if they dont intend to balance itāā¦ same reason they introduce 3x More Talents then they intend to balance.
The Dev is simply, putting the Illusion of choice onto the player. The Option existsā¦ but the option feels unviable to anyone who takes performance into account.
and this exists throughout the game entirely
Was playing a Sub Rogue a Good idea in 8.3? No it werent. but its a āchoiceā given to every rogue player. were they people who diehard mained the specc throughout. Yeah ofcourse there were. will there be diehard 2handed frost DPS Mains in the game in SL, yeah they defintly will be.
Speccs, Talent Set ups, Azerite Traits, Essences, Covenants and builds / Stat priorities. are entirely āillusional choiceā. and you get people who will play these systems as āblizzard want us toā which is from a aspect of Fun > Performance. but the core players do play the content with performance in mind will ignore all those choices.
Blizzard have never intended to make every part of a Specc viable to play nor competitive because lets face it.
People consider anything under top performance of a class Unviable. a Sub rogue can Viably do mythic Nzoth and a Arcane mage can viably do a M+25 during seasons. but players will state they simply are not, because ur rejected from groups pUGs and potientally benched for making those decisions to play those classes.
Blizzard say it in every post. they intend all Aspects of classes to be viable. meaning its Possible to kill all the content in the game. and they achieve that, but if DW is doing 15% more DPS then 2handed the community wont call it viable. and thats were the miscommunication realistically is.
2handed got nerfed to keep DW in power realistically and Ensure thats not threatened, I dont know why theyāre so decided on DWā¦ i dont think any of them even main a Frost DK so i dont know where the Bias generates from, but they seem to have created it.
as far as i can tell, More DKs hate BoS then like itā¦ so i really dont get where they feel like theyāre simplying winning but keeping it at the top. i really dont see players demanding it. I get forums are such a tiny space. but Once upon a timeā¦ Frost was the most popular DK. even when Unholy out performed frost they still Out numbered Unholy.
Its Since Nighthold where BoS Became the absolute requirement that I simply stopped seeing frost DKs, that speaks volumes on realistically where the player opinons atā¦ Frost DK Was amazing Til this iteration of BOS existedā¦ and if it takes making 2handed the Primary Option for Frost, do it. it feels so much better from a gameplay standpoint then DW BoS Will ever.
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Nice and comprehensive analysis, I like that.
Referring to current sim results DW is performing a little bit better than 2-H even with Obliteration build. We know that much. I really hope this will not be the case when we go live because then bringing back 2-H could be considered more like a nice try. If 2-H would be better with Obliteration, DW with BoS and Icecap for both (as balanced as possible), then I guess we have a quite good situation. I think it is better keep both playstyles viable, because even 2-H has a good amount of fans, there is DKs who still likes BoS as well.
2-H was removed in Legion mainly because of Artifact weapon system and there was no room for more than one weapon. If developers wanted to keep 1-h weapons in DKās arsenal they needed to keep that option at least with one spec. I guess Frost was the least bad option in that situation.
So far iāve seen, 2H frost are decent when it comes to SL. Underperforming DW, which is almost expected, but not by miles. The reasons that the big nerf was release was due to 2H was able to pull of massive bursts, but that was mainly due to Palygos/Emeni soulbinds.
Having a spec/playstyle underperforming by a small margin shouldnāt be much of a deal, and should just be down to some simple number tweaking.
However a great example in how not to do it is the current difference between how Frost performs vs UH performs in the pre-patch. Itās a massive difference, and the nerf only brought it down further.
Thatās not actually the best example, as youāre comparing a spec being massively boosted by azerite traits benefiting from mastery, which will be gone in a few weeks, vs a spec thatās missing core passives, and doesnāt get the same benefit from their azerites. For reference, last sim I ran (functional one) the magus of the dead trait was accounting for 15% of my damage alone, thatāll be chopped clean off come sl.
Itās been said again and again pre-patch isnāt balanced, weāre effectively lvl 50 twinks right now, the only question really outstanding is why some specs have more important, or for some builds, crucial passives/abilities at a much higher level than others, but even thatās only an issue for the pre-patch period.
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To be fair, youāre correct.
I was just using it as an example in how it shouldnāt be, how big of a difference just a choice of specc can be. And in SL Frost will catch up massively.
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U didnāt even do raids or arena so stop talking that u know your dkā¦ U didnāt even do the real content of wow. I agree that BoS is not a fun playstyle and that prepatch frost is trash tier but sl will bring change with the lvl 52 58 buffs to obliterateā¦ It will be fine! And for Pvp even skillcapped said that frost could become better than uh dkā¦
Please, I would like to know of what āUā are talking about?
What kind of buffs will come?
Did āUā ever played a obliterate Frost DK? It doesn*t sound so.
Another ā1ā how knows nothing is talking about how good the Frost DK is right now.
So all the āY-tubersā and all the high score raiding guys are wrong because āUā said so?
Thats it?
Really?
āUā made my day ābroā.
He is not actually talking about how good FDK is at the moment in the pre-patch, more like how it performs in Shadowlands. With buffs he means rank 2 passive abilities what we will get at lvl 52 (Obliterate damage +20%) and 58 (Obliterate deals also frost damage) while we are leveling. Without those boosts 2-H does very low damage which is the reason why 2-H performs so bad at the moment.
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Itās really not worth asking for much at the moment. SL is now close, blizzard will get a deluge of information from new 60s of all covenants/builds/soulbinds and proper fine tuning can begin. Yes I was disappointed with prepatch but I fully expect 2h to be great in SL. At least try it at 60 before itās been called ādeadā or anything like that.
I think people have basis for such statements: for me Frost just deals twice less damage vs Unholy at 50. I doubt that covenants and 2 talentsā upgrades will fix it.
I think they are just throwing around numbers and see what sticks, 12 seconds on pillar of frost? Are you joking?
Well, at least we have frostwyrm back as baseline, which is good.