Lets agree to disagree.
My “payment” is enjoyment. Not gear. Gear is just the means to an end. Not the end itself.
And people that have your mentality still have to answer to me what their plan is once they are fully geared. Then what ?
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AoE CC’s don’t do “almost nothing”. Saying AoE fear does almost nothing is like saying Dragon’s Breath does almost nothing. Terrible take. But more importantly, casts going off isn’t really what I’m talking about. I’m talking about the insane self-sustain of tanks.
We enjoy M+ in the first place. And on the side we get the gear. I am also pretty sure from next week we will get a weekly myth track item in the vault. We are already able to ‘farm’ hero track items (+7), so for gearing delves will not be that interesting.
If casts go off, the tank or group crumbles instantly though.
I am often playing with a guardian druid on voice, and he is very very often out of buttons. Way more often then i have my spirit link totem available. Considering i have done up to timing 26’s in the past with him i do not think he is a bad player.
More likely everybody else does…
But sure, they hurt. It is incumbent on all players to shut down casts by repeatedly micro-AoE-CC’ing them. Dragon’s Breath, Tail Swipe, Wing Buffet, and of course the AoE stun CC’s are huge.
But of course tanks have these kinds of things as well and contribute even to that.
I’m gearing up because I want the mount and I want it to be easy. I also don’t care about gear just for the sake of caring about gear. Beyond transmog I don’t even care about gear at all.
I did the same thing in DF S4, did keys for Hero gear in the vault then got the mount at the end of the season when I was an absolute abomination.
Why would I sweat in +7 at 604 ilevel when I can wait a few months and swagger in at 619 like Exodia and obliterate everything?
You’re not going to shut a pull down as long as you were doing in DF with these things. Because the mobs start instantly casting again if you don’t actually interrupt them. You’re going into DR territory very fast and then the casts WILL go off if you don’t interrupt.
Yeah, Priest probably is a bit on the low end of cc’s/stuns and no interrupt. Fear is also broken immediately on damage, which does not happen on something like stun totem from shaman.
And you do, and the tank does too, but that’s not the point. These things are being cast all over, not just on the tank. And frankly, when you don’t have a tank, shutting them down is significantly harder as well - see delves.
Try taking 2 DPS and a healer with iLvL 580 to a level 11 delve and see for yourself how the game changes. It’s remarkable.
But it’s weird that you took no stand against the repeated s3xual exploitation of blizzard female employees since you still consume their product. Please stop with the hypocrisy and virtue signaling. Either go all the way , and earn respect, or bend the knee when it suits you and earn ridicule. You have earned the 2nd.
The self-sustain of tanks goes hand in hand with incoming damage.
In DF, and specifically DF S3/S4 with DH tank meta… the bulk of tank damage were white swings. Because any and all casts were CCd, interrupted, ect…
And caster mobs behave just like any other mob. They have agro. And if the tank has it, they will cast their stuff on the tank. Unless, that cast is something like “choose a random player and cast Y”. But the random “web bolts” or whatever, are mostly funneled to the tank.
What changed from DF is how the internal CD of such “web bolt” cast is managed. They ALL have some internal CD, like players do.
In DF, once you interrupted the cast by whatever means (stun, fear, kick, knockback, whatever…) the internal CD would start ticking and that mob would not cast anything else until it was over.
In WW, the internal CD only begins once the cast is complete. So if you stun them, they will instantly begin casting again. Because most kicks have X seconds of silence built into them, after those X seconds it will resume casting. And only when the cast is complete will the internal CD start ticking.
In practical terms what this means is that you cant shut down mobs for 40s… and depending on comp… permanently. And all those “grey bar” casts you cant kick… you can delay them for a couple of seconds with a chain of stuns and knockbacks… but you cant interrupt it like you could in Neltharus for example…
So tanks receive a LOT more magical damage than what they used to receive in DF. So much so, that white hits are not 90% of received damage anymore. Its more like 50%.
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You kill the mobs so fast that they never really pose a danger in delves as a DPS though?
I’ve done delves on my paladin as retri to get more vault slots to fish for tier and they’re not anywhere close to dangerous.
The only thing I’ve encountered in delves remotely close to challenging was the zekvir’s lair delve, which took some tries to get down but it’s a challenge delve.
No. Not at 11 anyway. If you don’t use some CC they’ll cast some devastating attacks and I run out of micro-CC’s. Or at least they did last week, they keep changing it.
Especially not if you’re undergeared. Do this to simulate what a very high level delve would be like - and compare it to a high level M+. High level M+ as seen on the MDI or TGP, even at keystone level 15+ manage to pull 10-15 mobs at the same time and the tank is just eating it all except the casts which must be interrupted, as was mentioned, but is mainly a problem due to what it’ll do to DPS and healers or just mobs not grouping up.
You wont obliterate everything with 619 on a +7… 
And I will save this post for future use. I dont want you in the forums complaining in a couple of months that nobody wants to invite you to their parties because you got 0 rating and have to build it up from scratch while the rest of the people are sitting in 2500 atleast.
All because you refused to do 4s right now. 
But hey… you play however you want. Just be careful with the choices you make and OWN your decisions. Nothing is consequence free in this world. Not even in WoW. Dont forget.
The power rewards stop at 8. Anything beyond that is just for challenge.
And what relevance, exactly, does this have to the discussion?
I’m trying to talk about what not having a tank does to the game. How the mob damage changes and how the way you use your abilities changes. We have to compare hard delve to hard m+ for someone like you to understand, but now you don’t want to engage in the discussion because delves don’t give a reward above +8?
That doesn’t even make sense.
???
A tier 11 delve is meant for high end geared people. Not the gear levels we have now. Even a tier 9 delve is recommended to be at 610.
Grouping up with a healer or tank as a dps makes things easier? WHO COULD HAVE GUESSED. That’s been a thing in all games that run on the 3 role system of tank, healer and dps.
Its not a terrible take.
Yours is if im honest. That dragons breath you yolo’d in to be helpful just make 2 ppl whiff their interrupts.
We’re now worse off than we were.
This is what the change has done.
And a M+ 15 is probably tuned around people with 670 gear if measured in that same way, and we’re all “undergeared” for it so it becomes hard.
This is besides the point of how the game changes when there is no tank. Dungeons are tuned such that mobs hit like a freight train due to how good tanks are, so we can’t use “don’t bring a tank to your dungeon” as a comparison. Delves help us understand what a game tuned around no tank or weaker tanks would be like, and I vastly prefer it.
Enemy hits and tanks are so strong that they can tank 15 of them at the same time and if I get hit ONCE with a regular melee hit I just die from 100%. That’s how good they are. Obviously they should be stronger at defense than me, but this much too strong.
You have no idea what you’re talking about. Every high end M+ mage picks DB for a reason.