Oh well, the women that were victims in this situation I’m sure appreciate your sacrifice. Maybe leave an address so that all the women victims can send you some flowers as a thank you for stepping up for them.
Forgive us for ignoring the herp derp ima mage lol pov.
You sound utterly clueless. Tanking is way harder now than it was last expac. Youre still in the ‘lol tanks OP’ lala im not listening to anyone who says anything else pov.
Then you use the .01%'rs to justify your take.
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Can’t believe I see the day I actually agree with a Deja post. Have a like since it’s all I can give at the moment.
Thanks bro ! You know I love you even if we disagree on things ! 
Now that we accepted that tanks will 100% always exist : The logical followup to that is that you cant treat tanks in isolation.
So if you reduce sustain by 50% and incoming damage by 50% then you also have to reduce healer power by 50%, player HP by 50%, and DD self sustain by 50%. So you are back to where we are now.
And then, you have to make tank play ENGAGING. You have to punish tanks for not “playing right”. What does “not playing right” mean to a tank ? Well… death … that is what it means…
Then add details… what does “playing a tank right” mean then ? Well… not death I guess… but what else ? Being at 100% HP all the time ? So if you miss 1 CD you get 1-shot somehow ? Well no… you give tanks some buttons to press and have their health YoYo up and down.
But what happens if you do that ? Well… as I said : Sustain and damage go hand in had. It means that if you want to make tank gameplay engaging… be DEFAULT a DD will get 1-shot by any mob.
It dosent encourage anything. Its not the timer, or the strength of tanks. In M+ at-least.
If damage is low DDs will tank and just YOLO the dungeon and get it done as soon as possible. Like it happened in Heroic dungeons for example. If damage is too high, then you need a beast of a tank with high self sustain.
But you cant have an M+ dungeon with high damage and no tank. Because then people will do what you mentioned in Guild Wars 1 and simply create a tank…
Because group play has advantages and disadvantages. As do Delves.
What you are describing is ONLY the disadvantages of group play vs. ONLY the advantages of Delves.
When in reality its the following : you enjoy delves (the good AND the bad) more than M+ (the good AND the bad).
And especially it has nothing to do with tanks. Because you can still walk into a Delve with a BDK and YOLO the thing. No matter how much they buff the mobs…
But what I don’t understand when players complain about tank power is this:
-If the tank is the shield that stands between death and yourself, why would you ever want him to be weaker? It’s just like calling for a Power Word Shield nerf basically, since that is what a tank is. A mobile PWS for the rest of the group. Why would you want it weaker? Because of the speed running meta? That won’t change. It will just be even more of a slog and will just compound to the already existing problems.
You are somehow under the wrong impression that “invulnerability” is what makes a tank go fast. In reality , it’s mostly peer pressure, and the pressure of time in a key, or just the tank player wanting to push himself/the group. Take away the survival aspect and you will be left with people who want the same things, do the same things, just worse.
Honest question.
With the current subject of this thread, I’m thinking even me getting in a +7 may no longer be free.
They got nerfed a little bit, but they are still outrageously strong. It depends on the specific tank though - some are much stronger than others. If you’re a Paladin going “oh no but I can’t sustain myself indefinitely” - TRUE. But try to get a bit more perspective.
I’m still seeing insane tanking even at +9’s this early in the season. I’m looking at it. The group dies, tank could just live forever on the boss anyway. Only reason he doesn’t is because he deliberately dies in order to save time since their damage is the one thing that’s actually balanced about them.
If you do that we end up where we started which is what we don’t want.
What they wanted to do, and managed to do a little bit of but didn’t really finish, is increase tank health, decrease tank sustain, and not touch enemy damage.
It also means controlling enemies, positioning them, etc.
When mobs are running loose that’s another sign of a tank fail, though it may be a DPS or healer who didn’t allow the tank to do their job, such as making tons of random ninjapulls.
So they gave them a 550% threat bonus. That puts them at over 3x as much threat generation as most DPS will do and it’s AoE. So yeah…
Unless you attack straight off the bad, you ain’t pulling aggro. Even a bad tank who does half the damage he’s supposed to will still keep aggro no problem.
Of course it does. If you could meticulously pull a dungeon mob by mob and kill it, there would be some builds focused on that instead of AoE pulling, I guarantee it. And they’d probably be able to go higher than the AoE builds as well.
I was comparing to a group delve - not a solo one.
Delves definitely represent the other extreme where there’s no tank. I think it actually plays better than having a tank, but for me the right approach is somewhere in the middle - a tank that needs external sustain or CC help and/or must tank a smaller amount of mobs.
In the end it’s my opinion. I don’t like where they’ve gone with class design, I think that’s clear to just about everybody at this point. But it feels like they just solved the problem of high threat but low survivability in Legion by just making them immortal so they don’t have to kite, and since then they’ve been getting increasingly busted, and in DF it culminated with absolute insanity.
I understand they have done a little bit, but nowhere near enough imo.
Nah.
I wait several seconds before I unleash my aoe damage as a retri paladin. I still manage to get myself killed because I pull aggro quite often. It’s ridiculously upfront bursty damage, dot classes will have a bad time playing with a retri paladin unless it’s higher keys because retris are so frontloaded.
I didn’t know. I thought frost was on the bursty end but I did find out on HC queen last Sunday that while I needed 7 seconds to fully execute my AoE burst to kill the roots, by that time the frost DK’s and rets had already killed all the roots. xD
But still, we’re talking that early uber burst thing. As soon as the tank has actually gathered the mobs and started generating threat you can’t really pull them off no matter how hard you burst, even if the tank runs off afterwards.
Then they need to buff healer output to keep him alive. And that means… that in comparison healing DDs will become a non-issue. So, we will become the tank-spam-heal healers used to be in TBC and WotlK.
So to make healing more engaging, we need DDs to take more damage. So… the damage becomes spiky for DDs and then healers are too stressed… So they increase tank sustain. but then we need to decrease healer output… and blablabla… here we are now…
You CANNOT look at thing in isolation. I will repeat it once again.
And then there is the gameplay perspective. Decreasing sustain what it means is that a tank can do his job 100% perfect… but still fail at his task. Its like not meeting healer checks because the boss is over-tuned. It simply sucks.
This is not true. A good tank will not have agro taken away from him. A bad tank… I can tell you I am SICK of having to heal DDs that get hit by whites.
You will then find the tank/DD/healer comp that allows you to pull… dunno… 2 mobs at a time instead of 1 by 1.
And because M+ has a TIMER… those comps will clear the dungeon twice as fast and therefore have an advantage.
There. Changes nothing.
People want to do things fast and they will find a way to do it. Regardless of what blizzard does.
A group delve is 100% better WITH a tank than with out one.
Just look at the LFG for delves. How many of them have (tank) written on the tittle ?
And you can do NOTHING about it.
As I said before, division of labor is more productive than the sum of its parts. Ford got it with his model T, our whole economy is based on that concept…
Heck… even traditional families with man/woman roles rely on division of labour…
WoW is not any different. Stop imagining its not the case.
Its your opinion sure. But its not based on facts and observations.
You cannot stop tanks from existing. And because they exist there are consequences that you simply have to accept. And can do nothing about it.
That name is fantastic.
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I actually want them to specifically not do that so that the tank dies if he tries to tank 10 mobs like that. And not only do I want that, I want those 10 mobs to hit for less than they do now!
So, as you might imagine, that’s a pretty severe nerf.
No no no - what you’re doing is not nerfing tanks and then bringing Blizzard into the same bind they’re already in. The reason you say I am looking at it in isolation is that you seem to want to keep tanks as powerful and then list the consequences of that follow the same logical conclusions that Blizzard followed already, landing you in exactly the same quagmire for the same reason.
Can just as well be the DPS’s fault. A lot of the time the mob runs off to hit a DPS because he bursted very high up front. Tank just didn’t have time to pick them up.
If a DPS manages to out-threat a tank who has aggro that means he’s done around 7 times the damage of the tank. So… that’s a lot. xD
As mentioned, the timer essentially creates this problem. Because of the timer you cannot pull meticulously, and because you cannot pull meticulously you must AoE, and if you must AoE your AoE must be stupidly powerful and the tanks able to survive it, and that brings us, inexorably, here.
Huge parts of WoW’s complexity is buried under an avalanche of micro-CC’s and AoE and extremely powerful tanks. Mages are hit very hard by this, for one.
Certainly - it makes it far easier, as mentioned tanks are OP.
But if you try to play a Delve without one you’ll find a very different gameplay experience that’s more fun.
Remember always that players will go for the easy route regardless of whether it’s fun or not, and if it isn’t fun they’ll complain about boredom. That’s just how it goes around here.
Again, no I can’t, but I can hit them with a nerfbat the size of a totempole. They’ll still be best at defending themselves, but to a lesser degree.
I don’t consider it fun to be constantly kiting on my balance druid because I’ll die if the mobs get into melee. I think it’s ridiculous that you can’t survive if they get into melee. If I wanted to play like dark souls and around not getting hit, I’d play dark souls, not wow.
Meanwhile, playing my retri I can just run into melee and beat them to the ground, because I don’t die if they hit me.
I can do them just fine on both but one is clearly more fun than the other - retri being the one that’s more fun, because I don’t have to constantly kite. I absolutely despise dark souls-like designs where you have to avoid ever getting hit or you just straight up die with no recourse. Doing them on my balance druid feels like a chore as a result of this design.
Where is a tank actually tanking 10 mobs? Even in the maze of mists the tank is on some packs close to dying. Just on 1 pack at a time 
I don’t understand where you got the perspective of tanks being completely self sufficient and OP full time. Yes, incarn exists, that is true. And then incarn is on cooldown.
When you pull at the start 1 tree with the pack he incarns and is ‘immortal’. And after that you have to pull the next pack with tree and soulcrushers without incarn and he is getting smashed away. I have to spam the tank there.
I specifically play tank and farm gear to outgear content so that it basically turns into this:
Then maybe I’ll use a CD but only if I feel like it. I like that way better than getting battered as Feral or Havoc.
I’d say the bigger issue is the ease of spec changing leaves classes who can’t tank in the dust.
That’s ignoring the fact Delves are easy to farm gear in as a solo tank so there isn’t even any benfit to grouping up. Other than fun with pals, which I do. I don’t pug them through and I’m a Puglord.
well, tell me what else i can do then? from across the globe… im all ears mate, as a consumer you have very little impact on a multi-billion dollar company, so really the only thing you can do is simply not supporting the company, and hope others does aswell. and even that is doing a helluva lot more than being a sarcastic prick on forums
This season is terrible for not experienced player when it comes to PUGs.
But you not going to WIN even when you join a guild
Because when you join a guild the party that is having a fun mplus experience is locked
and you are there in a roster of people that are struggling with low keys 
PUG vs GUILD?
Same thing to me
But what do you want to achieve here ? Even if the tank takes 1 mob at a time… the fact that you still NEED a tank for that implies that that 1 mob will absolutely maul you if he touches you as a DPS.
You still wont get the results you seek. Tanks will continue to be tanky, and DDs will continue to have ZERO chance of surviving with out one.
And delves… well delves will remain in the same state as they are now. Because a tank will ALWAYS survive more than a DD. In fact, not every DD is as squishy as our friend Elhara pointed out: DuDu gets 1-shot with a breeze, Ret can face tank mobs. Both are DPS. What now ? Nerf Rets or what ?
Or… lets say you nerf tanks so much its simply a “tankier DPS” than normal. Still the same dynamic. You overspecialize until you can pull 2 mobs instead of 1… and the cycle continues and we are back here… You go from seeing in LFR “need tank” to “need Ret”.
And you haven’t even addressed the elephant in the room: Healers. Healers allow Tanks to pull ALL the delve and AoE everything down. With out a healer, they would not be able to do that. And should you nerf them so much that the new “tank” becomes a “ret” then… with a healer, the ret would be able to pull the whole room and still live.
Just stop and think for a bit ok ? Any option you take leads you back here. Whatever that is. Its mathematical. The holy trinity is a result of players min-maxing. Its NOT a game design.
Tanks are not as powerful as you claim. Try healing for once. And tell me.
Right now I can sustain 800k overall HPS in 1 dungeon. You choose who I heal:
- The tank
- The party
- A mix of both
You cant ask for less self sustain of tanks with out turning healers into ST spam heal turrets… and that is BORING… im sorry… and whoever sais the contrary can go play Classic if they wanna…
But it happens ! You claimed it was impossible to take agro out of a tank. And that with 3 globals it was enough. It isent.
You have to play the tank right. And the DPS, because as I said nothing can be looked at in isolation in a 5 man group.
Timers have nothing to do with powerful tanks. You need powerfull DPS as well. And to play them right because as you correctly said there is a bunch of mechanics to deal as well. And you also need a healer that can react appropriately. That tracks the tank’s CDs and helps out when needed (which happens quite a lot now).
And as a side note: Please dont turn into one of those that wants to eliminate timers. I am tired of telling people to start asking for a 5-man raid instead of changing M+.
Because instanced content with out a timer already exists: Its called a Raid !!! Go bother them about doing 5-man mythic raids. Not me.
Then what is the problem ? Want fast Delve to get loot ? Get a tank. You want slow an meticulous FUN to enjoy the game mode as it is ? Dont.
Its perfect. Everyone does what they want with out affecting anywone. What is the deal here ?
Try doing a dungeon with out a tank. Lets see how well that ends up.
Also: Tanks are OP in Delves because they are tanks. Not because tanks are OP somehow. They would STILL be as OP as you claim if you nerf them by 70%. They still have plate armor, built in DR and a shield. Something a mage will never have.
So even if you nerf them by 200%, a tank will be able to pull 2 mobs a time, while you, the mage will only be able to manage 1 mob at a time. STILL better than not having a tank.
There is only ONE scenario where that FACT is not true : Nerf them so much they turn into a regular DPS. But then, I already talked about what would happen there with the DPS warrior equipping a shield and going on def stance.
To be honest. WHY ?
Why do you need this for Delves when you can perfectly go with out a tank ? Why do you need to somehow ruin M+ for this ?
Just leave tanks as they are and thats it. Keep doing your Delves as you prefer and leave the high octane M+ for those that like it. DONE.
The tank is already my hightest healing received with the lowest overhealing of everyone.
This is my almost 2 chested +7 mists (my highest timed key for now).
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/Hrg2mFfKQcpNnXaz#fight=5&type=healing&source=139&by=target
I have absolutely no idea what is meant by self sustaining OP tanks.
Correct. I feel the same.
And you are doubly correct if you look at the spell breakdown. Most of that healing are direct ST heals on the tank. Not passive “bounces” while you heal the party. Like it used to be in DF.