Gaming basics. The purpose of endgame progression for the developer is to provide players with a fun, but stretched out experience so they stay subbed for longer.
For me it doesn’t have to be challenging perse, but it should at least ‘take me a while’.
I don’t like being ‘done’ because that’s boring. That’s why I’ve wanted endgame progression for a player like myself.
But even though I’ve had higher gear than I could ever get before; it feels empty and unearned. Next week I’ll very likely will already be getting coins from the vault to go and buy crests so I can upgrade my gear.
It will be a while before I’m done with that, but on the other hand; we’ll be in week 3 only and I’ll already be into the ‘I don’t have much to do territory’ when it comes to gearing. I just don’t like that.
Yeah, that would’ve been better.
The contrary of what I’m saying, would be them stating, literally, that delves were NOT made specifically to provide solo and world content players with an endgame progression system of their own.
I don’t think they’ve said that.
If you’re talking about delves providing opportunities for group play; sure, they said that. That doesn’t change my claim though. It just means that they think that could balance group and solo play and make it a well working endgame progression system.
I simply don’t think they’re there yet. And I believe that’s due to their inability to properly balance it. So removing a big part of that equation, is a possible solution.
That’s why I’m saying the things I’m saying regarding the removal of group play from the progression part of delves.
The thing is; we already have numerous multiplayer endgame options.
Why do you want delves to just be another one of those?
Why not provide something actually unique AND serve an underserved part of the playerbase?
It just feels greedy from my point of view to want delves to be ‘just more of what you already have’.
The problem I have with this is that not all world content players play solo. There seems to be this general consensus that it’s only solo players who are categorised as world content players who don’t want to take part in the normal organised raids, mythic+ etc. I have said multiple times now I play with one other person, and as world players Delves are the content that interests us and which we run as a duo. We enjoy playing together and I can’t believe we are the only ones to play like this. Making delves solo would then be gating this content from as you put it, an underserved part of the playerbase.
I hate the division this is causing between people, I still say instead of fighting each other, we should be complaining to Blizz more about the scaling in the hope they will keep working on it and get it right for both solo and group play.
If any Devs did read these threads (doubtful I know) but I guess they would be happy, because while we all keep arguing between ourselves whether the content should be solo or include group play, it means nobody is pushing on the balancing which is the true crux of the matter imo.
You are correct. They said it is for players that don’t want to participate in organized content.
Those players could be occasional players (chill out session after raid) with friends. That could be very casual get-together with friends.
AND… Solo players. So everyone. Or in other words, a party between 1 and 5.
I don’t think limiting Delves to ONLY solo play is a possible solution. It is a very selfish solution. And it will not solve anything in the end. You will still be stuck with the same class imbalance in a solo scenario.
Like the post about Priests kick we talked about earlier… In the sense that if you do give Priests a kick so that they are not excluded from Delves… you extend that change to group play as well, disrupting M+ and Raid by doing so…
So you see… you cannot truly escape the “group play” dilemma even if you don’t physically participate in it. By how WoW is made. Its systemic. It is what I mean when I say “It is a multiplayer game”.
And its not just Delves. M+/Raid have been at it since Legion… with no possible solution… Delves, as the new end-game pillar just makes the dilema from M+/Raid to M+/Raid/Delves.
And blizzard’s job is to make EVERYONE happy. Not just the Delvers. So… they will compromise… and we only have 1 realistic choice : either we accept it, or we play something else.
I don’t think that’s an acceptable solution.
I don’t want to have even less to do.
That’s not what I’m saying.
Why don’t people get this?! It’s really frustrating hearing the same thing again and again.
I understand that, but I don’t think having both is working.
On multiple levels.
The problem is; people have different ideas about what is ‘okay’.
I would want solo play to be the more optimal choice overal.
Not limiting delves. Limiting the progression part of delves.
Just like the solo raid boss option only gives a 1 time reward and nothing else; it’s not part of the regular ‘raid progression/gearing’, nor should it be. But there’s still the option to do it solo now.
So think of it that way, but in reverse for delves.
That’s what I’m suggesting.
How about not limit Delves to 11. Make it infinite and see who get farther. And give achievements to Solo and Group.
I said achievements because giving Myth track gear… its… problematic. Because of the Raiders. But that is another discussion for another topic.
IMO that is the best compromise one can have. Especially because then “tuning” becomes redundant and unnecessary. Eventually, you would reach a Delve where white hits would 1-shot people.
And then, whatever people think is “okay” becomes irrelevant. You just find the level your comfortable in, and just… play…
Ah I see, so as a duo of world content players, we could play delves but not have any gear progression. You really don’t see that as limiting part of the player base?
I guess there is no use in further discussion as you said people have different ideas about what is okay. I would not see it as okay in limiting other player’s development to ensure that your own development is maintained. Kind of reminds me of the toxic mentality people ascribe to the so called ‘hard core’ end gamers doing mythic+ and raids.
I personally wouldn’t be interested in that.
I want character progression mainly; that’s what drives me.
I love getting cool new transmog options, but I don’t care about stuff like achievements, titles, toys, battlepets. In general anyway (there’s always a few exceptions, right?)
I already don’t even see myself ever doing anything past tier 8.
I just don’t see the appeal or the logic. I don’t play games for the challenge when it comes to difficulty. I like the type of challenges where you have to grind for something and it takes a long time and such.
Like I said: That wouldn’t fix anything for me.
Anything past a tier where gearing ends = dead content for me. Unless they’d put some cosmetic reward behind it that I really want - but that’s not the case at this time. I don’t care about the ugly void effect for the mount. I don’t care about the achievement.
Sure, but I care about my fun first and foremost. Sorry, but that’s just the way it is.
And I think the same can be said for the vast majority of the playerbase.
That’s why it’s fine to disagree.
I just don’t want yet another multiplayer endgame activity. We already have loads of those. People who like playing together already have several options. Solo players do not.
Anyway, I do think Blizzard needs to make considerable changes to delves for season 2.
But we’ll see.
Having a full group for delves doesn’t magically remove the mechanics that are unique to delves and turn the content into a generic dungeon.
Hard pass on your suggestion. For so many players delves are the best thing Blizzard has done for WoW group content in several expansions. I’d rather they refine their current vision for them than scrap it.
because according to Tah world content players have to be lonely loners and are absolutely forbidden to have any friends to play with and to have any human interactions
They should just turn delves into dark souls and make it all telegraphed. It’s already mostly telegraphed but it’s the auto attacks that create such a big disparity between the classes, some can outlive the auto attacks and some can’t. Would make them thematically more interesting too as they’re currently just a different take on a dungeon.
Taking grp from delve will not change anything since u can even now go solo.
I tested solo delve tonight 8 tier and is doable. It seems blizzard made ilvl require per tier u r doing. I did 8 with bran healer with ilvl 590-603 and did die just once when spear hit me 5milion but that was once and I did on both chars bounty runs all 4 dailies.
So if u r not geared enough for 8tier start doing lower ones proper for your ilvl or try to gear from other sources and then smash bounty. For vault u dont need to do bounty ones to get 616 weekly u can do regular ones for weekly.
Many others share your point of view. I share your point of view. I find it ridiculous that if you do M+, the gear of M+ is sub-optimal to raid gear. At equivalent, or harder difficulties.
However, the M+ community has been whining about the same thing… with out a solution.
If anything, in WW Blizzard doubled down on the problem even further by giving unfair advantages to Mythic Raiders.
So I highly doubt you will get any solutions here. The compromise I reached is just to enjoy the mode for what it is. Achievements, mounts and such.
I know your position. And as I said before, I agree with it.
But being “end-game pillar” is not what you think it is. It has good things. And bad things as well. And you cant have 1 with out the other. M+ is also an “end-game pillar” and yet we are in the same situation.
And to be 100% honest, if you want Delve gear progression to be fixed… what needs to change is Raid gear progression. So you need reforms on another game mode to make Delves make sense. As I said, its the same situation M+ is in… And this discussion has been repeated since Legion.
Wanting something and realistically making it happen are two different things.
Sometimes just accepting things as they are and focusing on having fun gives better outcomes. That is what I wanted to say. And its my opinion atleast.
Having cleared the raid in normal, and done some heroic, the raid is roughly on par with +6 key in heroic IMHO, yet the raid offers better gear than a +6 key, in order to get loot of a reasonable value from the key, I have to wait for the vault.
Balancing gear across Raiding, M+ and delves is the answer here, so that the difficulty is roughly equivalent in terms of ilevel gain. However Blizzard have been terrible at balancing since 2004, and that seems unlikely to change.
I find it interesting they add more and more complex things that need balancing, without first learning how to balance the basics, and somehow expect things to go well.
And it’s overall a much harder question than just making ilvl similar. Raid is on a weekly cd and is designed to have slow progression, with people getting a couple of upgrades per week and repeating the same content over and over, to slowly upgrade their gear over the season.
Other content, be it delves or 5-men content are designed in completely different way: you have much more different levels of difficulty, but once you can do it on certain difficulty it does not take too long to upgrade all your gear to corresponding level.
Thus if the power lvl of gear (it’s not just ilvl, ex. some trinkets can differ so much in power, that higher ilvl does not directly mean that it’s better) will be the same, the whole system will need a redesign, otherwise raids would be useless for gearing and will make sense only for world-first achievement.
