I love this, so much. 
Rosvall, feeling expetionally good reading your remarks.
I hope devs will look upon it and other contrucitive comments and maybe the rogue tree will be look better. Thanks for your time and knowledge consuming effort!
Not true. I can still disagree with you, but disagreeing is fine.
But just saying: I hate it. Without context, without providing possible solutions⌠Itâs just so useless.
WoW can never be balanced. Fact.
A fact that has been proven time and again for its entire existence.
Thatâs actually NOT what Iâm saying.
Iâm saying PvE is the devs main focus. And it is. Thatâs a fact.
Yes, but none of that changes the fact that PvP is NOT the main focus of the developers.
On the contrary. Please donât be so sensitive about this.
This isnât a judgement. This is me just stating facts.
I donât need to provide a solution, that isnât my job. I do provide reasons to why I dislike it. I have never said âi hate it, the endâ.
True, but that doesnât mean you can strive for it. Even in my line of work, there is no such thing as perfection. But every day I strive to get as close as possible. Just because perfection is impossible, doesnât mean you need to throw it all in the bin.
Poor arguement.
Saying fact doesnât make it so. Iâve provided reasons to why I disagree, Iâd love you to do the same.
The biggest youtubers since wow existence, is pvp players. The biggest streamers (besides asmongold) is pvp players. And even Asmon did pvp.
The reason I mention these players, is because they bring attention to wow, theyâre free marketing.
Again, saying fact doesnât make it a fact. Fact.
Again, repeat.
Survival Hunter has by far and away the worst talent tree of all that has been released so far.
Too many increase x%, decrease x seconds. There are no improvements there whatsoever.
Why? Its a copy pasted remark since Wotlk Alpha or even earlier. Lazy criticism thats basically reused for every single patch. If you think Blizz is predictable the same goes for the playerbase. Real criticism gets drowned out by these comments as they are far more of them.
Other comments like this is âthey dont even read the EU forumsâ⌠based on i guess that the ONE time the poster tried to be give real feedback (if they ever did) it was ignored and therefore a fact.
Others are just.
Story: s&%t
Gameplay: s#%t
Raids: s%&t
etc etc
This helps who to change what in what direction?
See this is more funny. The remark isnât about blizzard. The remark is about the community and their redicilous defence. Itâs about, when ever people point out flaws in their systems or design, people use these counter arguements.
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The irony is that they dont point out flaws, that would require complicated words and sentences to explain why something is bad other then âthis is badâ and at the same time not state it as a fact but an opinion. Far to hard for most.
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Oh how I dislike people like you. So demeaning and condesending in every word of a sentence. There is literally no need for it.
I have pointed out why itâs a bad design, I have directed to where I think it will go wrong. Iâve made talent trees to prove it, Iâve made multiple to compare them side by side. Everything is based of how the abilities work, experience with the said abilities.
Iâve compared trees as to why I believe the hunter talent tree is bad.
Now you say âthey point out flawsâ yes. But you donât read previous comments either, so youâre replying to a VERY long conversation without fully grasping the conversation, there by making flawed assumptions and accusations.
Itâs basically the same as with Tah. I provide reasons to why I think pvp matters. He does not. He simply state it doesnât and end the sentence with âfactâ.
How is that any more different than what you describe? How is YOUR comment, any different?
For one i meant in general aspect not you personally. I reponded to a response you made to another, look what you responded to, a lazy remark that means very little but you feel very true.
Its good that you yourself have put effort into the class you like BUT you state your opinions as fact but dont find them demeaning to your fellow hunters that dissagree? Tah stated that pvp dont matter? (tbh i havent read it all) If he did thats bit ignorant of him imo but you have stated things as facts aswell so you should know the frustration he has with you aswell?
When i dissagree with someone on Ret i ask why they want cirtian things back like Auras, blessings, seals or guardian, as i cant really fanthom as to why. So im curious why ppl demand things back that have ben phased out over the years
Just letâs hope Blizz change some of the things in trees before launch (in the ârightâ direction).
They did emphasize tough this is a every early-pre-alpha-work-in-progress-mockup-writed-red-font-capslock.
No. I actually started by saying it as an opinion. Guess what happened. People responded with âitâs subjectiveâ. Which is true. So I had to go more based on mechanics of said abilities.
I swear, itâs never good enough. Either itâs opinion based and there for subjective and canât be used here or itâs stated as facts and there by false and canât be used here. No matter how you describe it or how you define it, itâs never right. I swear that to be true.
As a sub rogue, I can have:
Sap
Garrote silence
Blind
Cheap shot
Kidney shot
Gouge.
Thatâs just the CC
For defensives, I have:
Evasion
Cloak
Feint with Elusiveness
Cheat Death
Crimson Vial
Recuperate
Cleaked Shadows that gives 30% shield when I use vanish.
10% reduced dmg from Fade to nothing while dance is active, or vanish.
For offensive, I have:
Shadow dance
Echoing Reprimand
Marked for Death
Find Weakness
Prey on the Weak
Symbols of Death with 10% increased dmg
10% increassed crit with symbols
35% increased Shadowstrike dmg with symbols
Shadow blades that gives 30% increased dmg
15% increased dmg in shadow dance.
100% crit chance from Cold blood
As Utility, I have:
2 Vanish that reduces the cooldown of abilities by 20sec
I have the ability to reduce cooldown of my dance.
I have the ability to reduce cooldown of Shadow bladess
I have two shadow steps.
I have wound poison and mind numbing poison. I know both canât be used at the same time.
All this means. With one dance, into symbols, into shadowblades, I get.
10% increased dmg from dance, 30% increased dmg from shadow blades, 10% reduced dmg from fade to nothing. 15% increased dmg with Dark Shadow, 10% damage from Symbols, 10% crit from symbols, 35% increased Shadow strike dmg from symbols, 40% armor by pass from find weakness and 10% increased dmg from prey on the weak.
That amount to 75% increased damage, 40% armor by pass, 10% increased crit dmg. Shadow strike it self gains 110% increased damage during dance with symbols and shadow blades.
This, along with the vast amount of utility and defensives will make rogues so much stronger than they are now. This goes for both pvp and pve. But since CC isnât as noticeable in pve, this will be felt much larger in pvp.
To be fair. You did the same. I responded, because your first word was âwhy?â so I answered you.
On top of that and this should be obvious.
Considering that outlaw reduces offensive cooldowns of team members, they will be represented in most 3v3 comps (I think sub will dominated 2v2).
They will be in top M+ teams.
They will be in raid teams and the question is, would there be more? Does the ability stack? Can multiple rogues reduce it faster?
These shouldnât even be speculations. Because if the answer is yes, it isnât a fun ability, itâs a broken ability. Simply by the fact that it makes that spec mandatory and excludes so many in the process.
Then ive missunderstood it but your phrasing is a bit weird.
This does not look like an opinion but a statment. only part that is an opinion is what ive bolded out.
Bit weird that your only comparison is with rogues, is it that you play that class a bit aswell but not DK/priest/druid? Yes rogues seems to get far more then other classes are getting but then again, its rogue. They always get everything, find it hillarious that they have an aura like talent that affects CDs of other classes while Paladins get basic and non-fun auras that never evolve.
There is nothing Rogues lack and they keep getting new tools while paladins gets tweaks of their toolkit from vanilla at best and usualy the last class to get the overhaul when things like this happens.
But at the end of it all its basically you seeing another class getting a better deal over your main? I look at hunters the same way you look at rogues, especially since i started to try and get some mogs by lvling a hunter and a dark iron dwarf paladin.
I mean the ammount of tools hunters gets early on is staggering while paladin gets ranks for the same attack.
Like Judgment
Rank 1 at lvl 3
Rank 2 at lvl 8 dmg increase 50%
Rank 3 at lvl 16 generates 1 holy power
Rank 4 at lvl 29 gives a debuff to target
Crusader strike having 3 ranks aswell one of witch lowers the mana cost of the ability other rank gives it an extra charge. (It shouldnt have a CD to begin with imo)
Wings have 2 ranks
Hammer of wrath has 2 ranks, the later one makes one able to use with wings
Now that is padded out skills for the sake of it as Paladins are as bare bones as it comes.
None of that was present for low lvl hunters as they just have so freaking much to begin with, The few ranks of spells they have usualy just lowers CD a bit, none of witch affects their rotation to make it artificially slow.
Edit: Sorry didnt read your comparison with DKs so it wasent rogues only
I suppose this is a basic difference in philosphy between us then. Iâm not going to strive for something thatâs impossible to get; itâs a waste of time imo. And Iâd rather put that time and energy into something worthwhile.
No, itâs a good argument. Because good PvP requires fairness and balance; just smashing noobs is NOT fun for a well adjusted human being.
It doesnât matter you disagree. A fact is a fact.
Iâm not going to debate a fact with you.
None of which disproves my claim in the slightest.
No, it doesnât. But it IS. Iâm just stating it to make it clear. Because not everyone is smart enough to interpret everything in a good way.
Boring. If you have nothing to add, letâs call this âdebateâ over because you clearly arenât willing to accept fact and debating with someone like that is useless and as Iâve made clear from my first reply in this post: I donât like wasting time on useless stuff.
Seems like a poor arguement, donât you think?
That isnât exactly how it works. And I will ask this. How can you argue what is good or not when you havenât ever dived into it? I mean, Iâm not going to sit here and think I know a lot about cars, game design, web design, electronics, health care or how to run a state. Because I literally have no knowledge or exprience on either of these fields. That is what frustrates me so much. Is that you have a very clear opinion on something you have no experience with. I find it very fair youâre not enjoying that part of the game. But donât run around and spout opinion as fact, based on thin air. Please.
Weâre not debating fact. Weâre debating that what you seem to THINK is a fact, isnât. Or else I dare you to prove it.
Prove it. Iâd like proff at this point. Thank you.
Like why am I the only one here providing evidence, arguements to backup my claim. While the rest of you are just saying it is and I have to take it as face value? And Iâm the âidiotâ here. I find that very disrespectful in so many ways.
No wonder this whole community is dug in the ground, consisting of âfact is factâ or âItâs rogue, they get it allâ. Like if this is all we have to offer blizzard. Like⌠Iâm so disapointed in so many ways, not going to lie.
This has been the most disapointing debate Iâve ever encoutered. Weâre talking about a new expansion, weâre talking about trying to get as much out of it as possible. We should be uniting, we should be providing concerns, ideas, wishes. Instead, weâre lallygagging with useless comments like âItâs rogueâ or âsubjective!ââŚ
Like it this the famours court all over again? You know the one that resently were. Are we all going to scream âhearsayâ at every corner possible? This is mindlesly childish. THATâS A FACT.
Iâm tired of people taking a stand against pvp when theyâve never done it. Iâm tired of people having opinions on raids, mythic +, etc when they donât enjoy the content.
My biggest dislike, is that PvP seems to get the most hate from people who donât do it. Hereâs a fact, DONâT DO IT! But just because you donât like it, doesnât mean you HAVE to ruin it for everyone else. There should be plenty of space for everyone to enjoy warcraft in each their way. There is literally no reason to combat any aspects of the game. If it isnât your forte, thatâs fine. Then donât comment about it.
And I will say. The minimum for making ANY accusations, claims or any of that sorth, the least you can do, is provide meaningful evidence, to your claims. Donât just say something and expect the rest of the world to take it as face value.
Youâre all saying the same. Saying âI donât like itâ is not enough without reasons.
It should go the exact same way with ANY other claim. No claim should be allowed to stand on its own without reasons, proff or the like. This is getting ridicilous.
Im looking forward to giving this build a try;
Thank you, so much! <3 I will look into it, see what has been chosen and if I may, Iâd like to give feedback on what I think upon it. 
I quickly re ammended as I made a small mistake new link replaced old one, but im seriously looking forward to the ranger vibe.
I have pointed them for years, and several times in previous posts.
The comment isnât aimed at Blizzard. It is aimed at the absolute cope of these posters who keep saying âbruh just wait for alpha/beta, its gonna be better!â when everybody, everyone and their mothers could see that covenants, azerite armor and legendary acquisition in legion were going to be complete cancer.
and guess what, we were right on every single one of those accounts. And the worst part is, that Blizzard DID eventually change all these systems to the players requests. But it didnât happen in alpha. It didnât happen in beta. It didnât happen in prepatch, x.1, but at the very last patch of the expansion when they finally admitted they were wrong and swallowed their pride.
The comment criticizes the livid naivete of you who keep the same mantra, year after year, that we should just wait and see, when historically that has been wrong. Every. Single. Time.
Also yeah the phrase itself has been around actually even longer since Wotlk, but at least back then the devs knew wth they were doing. Modern devs dont.
I will not take that away from you, nor have I ever tried that. Iâm simply trying to get hunter to the par of rogue. Where I feel it can provide the same feeling, the same âOp-nessâ to a certain exstend. Or on the other hand, get rogues changed to less of âOp-nessâ.
Like. If rogue wasnât so freakish strong in that talent tree, hunter would look a whole lot better.
I feel itâs like parking a Mustang next to Fiat. No one is going to be amazed about your new Fiat. 
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