i care about them and I want them to be better, hence why i am still here
meanwhile you don’t even do any content and you moan here about your spec which i promised wouldn’t change. you can still have your double pets, gg ez the battle is over for you
I never said that… I said we havent gotten to experience these new changes for ourselves yet and for people to already be crying over it is kinda weak.
Maybe you should take your own advice?
You have no idea what I do or do not know. So; more assumptions on your part.
It’s also borderline insulting tbh. So kindly refrain from doing so. Thanks.
Oh, now you’re going back on what you said?
Dude…
Logical from what point of view? Yours?
I have not been talking about rogues. I don’t care about rogues. I don’t play rogues. I couldn’t care less about their talent trees.
I’ve been talking about hunters.
More insults. Disappointing, but honestly not very surprising from a PvPer.
Again; I have not mentioned rogues ANYWHERE. I don’t care about them in the slightest.
‘Without offense’ and proceeds to be offensive. I think it’s time to report you and ignore any further abuse from you.
Good luck with your issues.
But your previous statements make it clear you don’t believe it will be better.
So… Seems foolish to stick around then, honestly.
I ‘don’t do any content’? How insulting and frankly very, very shortsighted and narrowminded of you. Bye bye.
You are actually mental?.. do you even read what you write?.. You don’t see any flaws because you don’t care about X and Y? For real? Why do you even try to argue? You are obviously clueless and don’t play the game… feel free to post with your main and prove me wrong but as long as you don’t do that, you are obviously not playing the game at all.
it can be, just got to bang the table hard enough. that’s why we’re being so negative already at this point and not 5 months into alpha as you would have people be. just wait and see, when that over the 8 years has meant that theres been no changes and blizzard spends the expansion fixing the issues rather than having a ready game
see u
This is the topic made by Blizz devs. I think it would be way more contructive to focus on what you like/dislike within the trees (super cool if it would be something more constructive than “it’s a disaster” - what exactly it’s good and what’s not?) rather than fight with each other.
I would understand sighs of devs trying to fish something constructive here, trying to read between posts with arguing ppl.
Just sayin’…
Mmmmh not the type of thing I agree with. Stuff like that already lead to bad things in the game. But if you absolutely feel the need to ‘bang the table’, at least be constructive. That’s my advice anyway.
That’s called marketing… DF is on pre-order… not noticed?
That’s why nothing else came from the dev(s).
As already said, in my first comment, there are several streamers who pointed out issues, which is why I am not repeating them on a forum, where I clearly know devs don’t care about.
If you truly think they are reading EU forums, then you gotta be very new to the game. Welcome.
Please let us save and quick swap different builds for different contents like AoE, Raid, PvP and Warmode/open-world PvP.
Gouge. Nice.
nah instead i’ll be loud because that is the only language blizzard understands these days
That was already shown, you can save several talent builds per specialization.
I don’t think so. But you do you. Don’t be surprised if you annoy fellow gamers and devs alike though.
i dont see the issue
I’m not really surprised, sadly.
That’s not the point.
That’s the same as saying: Let’s break the law here because the police doesn’t patrol this area.
Please remove Crimson Tempest and Fan of Knives cap, buff assassination AoE damage while keeping its single target damage and let us done with it.
MAGA - Make Assassination Great Again! 
Hello,
I’m Rosvall. Rogue player since Vanilla. Participated in high end on all content. Raid, M+, Arena and RBG throughout the years. Am one of the founders in the rogue community Ravenholdt, contributed and involved in theorycrafting and simulationcraft projects and been part of a lot of feedback cycles for well over a decade.
This feedback will be focus on what I feel are odd choices, be it thematically or otherwise, based on my experience and expectations of what the rogue identity is, was and could be. It might look mainly be written from a PvE M+ and Mythic Raid point of view and might seem critical; however, I do think these trees are a step in the right direction and that there is a lot of good in them.
My first comment is on the structures of the trees. In a vacuum these can work great and there’s no issues with them. However, when you compare them to other classes then I start getting confused.
Why are rogue trees the only ones that are 100% symmetrical? The layout and the travel nodes seem to be made out of aesthetics rather than to create interesting choice. Not even a spec called “Discipline” has symmetrical talent trees.
Why are rogue trees the only ones where you can never start from the left and end up in the right? Or vice versa. In fact, the only cross over at all in either of the 4 trees is that you’re able to go slide into the middle as assassination. However still not able to cross.
This restricts choices so extremely much. It is basically like each talent tree has only 3 paths you can take. Compare these 3 paths to survival which has over 20 paths and you start getting confused.
In addition to this. Rogue is the only class who has no choice talents at all, anywhere. Balance druid has 8 choice talents in the last 1/3rd alone.
Now as I said, I’m not saying that this is a bad design choice. However why is it so extremely different from all the other classes? Why is it so reduced in scope?
The talents themselves are all interesting. But they would make for great choices if it wasn’t that we were being forced into a whole path of the tree to pick up end nodes. Literally if you want any of the end nodes in either Subtlety or Outlaw, then 11 other talent points are forced to be taken with absolutely 0 player agency. I feel this is the largest issue with our trees currently.
Starting with the Rogue Class tree. This tree offers a lot of interesting options. Making each path give something interesting. But the lack of being able to cross over makes it restrictive in choice. The end nodes could’ve been more interesting and impactful. There’s a lot of trading QoL for Damage which doesn’t feel amazing due to how hard locked in you get with our trees. All in all, above average selection of talents. Albeit I wouldn’t mind some more innovation, not a single talent is something that we haven’t seen before. There are a few things that I feel are damning, however. Firstly, I feel that the raid utility should exist in the class tree, not in two out of three spec trees. Secondly, there should at least be an option to regain the Soothe effect that Shiv gave and not make that Assassination specific.
If we go into the Subtlety tree then there’s some letdowns but also a good selection of interesting talents. In recent times after reworks, Subtlety have worked on an ebb-and-flow rhythm. You have your ebb time where you deal almost no damage but focus on setting up your maintenance buffs and using Backstab. Then your flow time when you activate your Shadow Dance and start using your cooldowns to deal damage.
The talent tree gives options in order to weaken this ebb-and-flow by increasing the damage you deal with Backstab. Which can be an interesting take on the spec and is welcome. However it doesn’t nearly give the same tools in order to strengthen the playstyle by increasing the burst windows instead.
The right hand side of the tree contains Secret Technique. This talent has been rather problematic over the years. Acting as a rather watered out replacement for Death From Above and have not really been of large interest. Between the disjoint the cooldown reduction causes to being a fairly weak and unimpactful ability. I feel that the right play here is to recreate this ability. Make Secret Technique instead function with the same base idea as the mage Arcane Ability – Touch of the Magi. Where you accumulate damage on your current target and after a period release that damage in AoE. This plays into Subtlety’s Funnel playstyle very well and also fits superbly being in the same line as Flagellation.
Tree in general is hurt about by not being able to have any choices due to how streamlined it is. There’s only two talents, that probably never will be picked, that can be reached by more than a single predetermined path. That is far too little compared to other classes.
I do kind of enjoy the talents. Most seem to be beneficial. But it’s also a lot of modifiers building on top of a lot of modifiers. Very few that actually change how we play. I feel this tree will be solved mathematically and have been designed to be easy to tune rather than to make the spec feel different based on your choices. I would also want to have the No Fall Damage back from Cat Reflexes that we had during Legion.
Finality being only 6 seconds of a buff is troublesome. It seems like a weird and restrictive change to make. This I would want reverted to 30 seconds, but preferably permanent instead.
Shadow Mist is probably the only interesting new thing in the Subtlety tree. However it is rather lackluster. It’s a negative QoL by finding and moving into the Mist, especially with how messy with spell effects Melee already is on bosses. And the pay off is one charged combo point, about 3cp worth of value. In practice, on single target, this becomes about the same value as Marked for Death but you need to work harder for it.
And finally, Shadow Blades. The by far weakest 3 minute cooldown in the game. A cooldown that barely increases damage on single target and deals even less on AoE. It does however feel really good to press on single target. Shadow Blades feels like it is worth being a 1 minute cooldown instead of a 3 minute in its current state. There needs to be more benefit added to this cooldown in order to make it impactful. Especially in a world where CDR is being pushed more.
I will just briefly go over the Assassination tree. I think that this looks pretty good. There’s still the issue about not being able to cross from left to right, however it’s a little better due to middle tree being double accessed. Would still want it improved though.
Venomous Wounds is in an unfortunate position. It will likely be the cause that limits a lot of build diversity. This is a balance issue, so we will have to see how it feels and so. But something to be aware of.
I’ll reiterate that I would want raid utility to be moved into the class tree. Not the spec trees.
Deathmark sounds like a very good replacement for Assassination. Is this Assassination’s “Major Cooldown”, for CDR purposes? It looks neat at least and will probably be very powerful.
Wording on Iron Wire seems weird, since you could in practice have this without Improved Garrote [NNF] in class tree, which would make the wording make no sense since Garrote doesn’t baseline silence.
If you run Improved Garrote from the right side of spec tree. And you use Subterfuge from the class tree. Is Improved Garrote from the spec tree then a lot less useful? If that’s the case, it should probably not be a travel node that you are forced to pick up if you’re moving down in that tree.
Lastly, we go over the Outlaw tree. This one is also designed just like Sub. Where you get forced into a lot of talents if you want to reach end node ones. It’s slightly better than Sub still, but not by much.
I want to bring up the huge issues with Restless Crew right from the start. This is probably a talent that should never exist. This talent has 4 main glaring issues that make it a bad design.
Ok, moving on. There’s a few interactions here that might be troublesome in the future. Such as Shadow Dance + Count the Odds. Where you will likely get full buffs, and then extending the buffs with Keep it Rolling. I feel that this will create such a big difference in power between those windows and regular gameplay that you will feel very bad in the low periods. Especially if the spec is balanced around these massive highs. Just something to keep in mind. I think Keep on Rolling is a neat idea. But having access to Shadow Dance in conjunction with CTO and Keep it Rolling is noteworthy.
Otherwise there’s a mix of new things and old things in the tree. Ability to make Blade Flurry worth on Single Target. Going to a cap of 8 on AoE is nice, even though it could’ve be uncapped.
Bone Spikes from Necrolord covenant ability feels like it should be brought into Outlaw. It really fit the spec well. A lot better than Sepsis.
Speaking of Sepsis, it is in my opinion a very, very weird decision to include it into all three spec trees. If something is obtainable by all three specs. Why not put it into the class tree?
All in all, I feel that this is a great starting point. But there’s a lot of room for improvement even before number balancing starts. I hope there will be changes. Especially to how locked down and different the talent trees are compared to every other class. Will be an interesting ride. And I hope Realz gets to have enough time to iterate through these a few times before release.
Thanks, I’ll have a read. 
Tah, let’s be honest. Even if I give constructive feedback, explain WHY I think it’s bad or WHY I think rogue will be absolutly OP. The fact that I think “it’s bad” is still negative to you and everyone else. Unless we’re chearing on, you won’t like us.
Sadly, the truth is. I’m not negative about the new expansion, actually. I’m looking super forward to it. I just don’t think this makes sense or is in the least fair.
Subjective. Keep it to your self. No facts behind it.
So. This has me hating pve players so unbelieveably mutch. You’re not less selfish than anyother player and will argue why you matter more.
So… PvP was SUCH a big part of classic, that they literally introduced a whole new system to the game. Battlegrounds.
PvP after that became such a big part of wow, that they added arenas into TBC, with a specific pvp stat in mind. The game after that, has had unique sets for pvp along with rewards. The first main stage to ever be set as a competition was PVP.
The ONLY value your arguement has now, is that pve players has chased pvp players away with the constant “It ISN’T FAIR THEY TAKE LESS DMG IN WORLD PVP, QQ I GOT KILLED BY A ROGUE”. These are constant negative arguements that caused a down pour for the pvp community and killed off pvp to the point where we literally was forced into pve to gain gear.
We were slowly getting out feets back in SL, but the pve balancing is causing massive issues into pvp.
Say what you want. But you’re wrong and there are YEARS of evidence behind it.
Just for everyone to read. I’ll direct my words better. I think hunters looks interesting, I think there is a lot you can do. But I also feel, that unless rogues numbers are abysmal without talents, the power gap between classes will be unbelivably large.
Especially from a pvp point of view, but not excluding pve either.
Outlaw and Sub from both pvp and pve pov will have a MASSIVE damage advantage, unless they’re garbage without certain talents.
Either isn’t a good design.