Nah… Underrot with tyrannical/Fortified second boss. ![:slight_smile:](https://d1bg94bbsh66ji.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/slight_smile.png?v=6" ":slight_smile:")
I’d disagree, if anything I like to think its the casual audience which is killing the game and heres why:
The attitude of elitist vs casual - this is a very grey area and it usually comes off biased however this works on both sides of the coin. On one hand you have people the ‘elitists’ even in this case and the content they do is high end content yes we’ll just be lazy and use examples here of what casuals might find as high end content, heroic raiding +10/12’s. Elitists go much higher but w/e we’ll leave it at that.
However then you have to realise is that this isn’t quite always the issue, sure a casual will never get into a elitist’s groups. Why? -well player choice ofcourse, same again for mediocre players who get curve near the end of patches themselves, their group. their choice, its the same kind of concept which is why vendors are preferred over RNG loot drop. Because with player choice you’re guarenteed the euphoria of getting something you worked -hard- for.
The reason why A casual fears the fact that elitists might “kill the game” is the fact that they wont make their own pugs (usually) or even try joining a social progression guild of the sorts, some people simply don’t play enough or commit enough time to justify even doing that kind of content.
That is why the LFR wing and M+ 0 is there for you so you can see the game in the closest thing to a story mode you will get where people like you will be all assorted into content where you don’t need to know anyone to do the content and being in the safest place in the game minimizing the number of tries you will need to do it.
Which implys when you see x-post on the forums about “boohoo, I pay monthly sub but cant get any dungeon groups.” you know why then, its somebody who hardly plays, likely doesn’t know how to play their class to the extent they should and worst of all expects a group to pick up the pieces for them all the way through - effectivley leeching or expecting a free pony ride through content their not capable of doing due to a sudden spike in difficulty and perfection being key (something most casual players are nowhere near conditioned for.)
Player choice, class complexity, game depth and rewarding the player - why this all matters.
This is another grey area which isn’t researched enough into by the casual player, the damage this causes is phenominal to a player’s interest in the game can be hugely different just by taking minor research into the content you’re doing and the class your playing, why is it important? why cant i choose what I want?
Well you can at your own and your team’s expense, if your raiding there is leverage for some players will always make up for struggling players, key word -struggling- due to gear, stat priority, knowledge of class or some other reason. People who come unprepared will get kicked, as is the way of life. People do the hard work for you, class theory crafting all the good stuff - is up to you to make use of it, if you struggle to play your class its -your fault- as the material to learn is out there to help you from start to finish.
Player choice does become limited in talents and traits due to the cookie cutter lay out and the depth being insufficient as this is done to ‘simplify the game’ for casuals more so than the high end players and when something gets simplified, the room for error minimises that much more.
What casuals don’t understand is if the game is numbed down to a level where they have equal playing field, class depth dies out and game play becomes further simplified to a point where the players who play competitivley disappear amongst the masses which is why rewards need to gradually increase as appropriate and according to the level of content.
LFR is there to cater for people with the second lowest reward to world questing. Then you have normal, heroic is bordering territory where most if not all the ‘casual’ players who play about what 2 hours a day are entirley near enough removed, within reason. as this content they’ve not put any near to no effort towards, hence wipe. Warfront’s rewarding the gear they do is insane and a mistake, yes its a nice catch up system however it damages high end content.
The same applies for TF (will explain further) due to the fact you are capable of obtaining such high end gear for little work, damages the ability of players accessing such end came content hence making 3rd party apps such as Raider IO & Gear score/curve el importante as now people have to make up for this by asking for harder requirements to minimise wipes as its obvious alot of “casual” players who come without flasks or anything will be trying to hop in under the impression of how hard can it be and drag down the host’s group more than it should
The double-sided sword, titan forging.
Titanforging is a crutch for casuals and a death sentance for commited players - this is proven through again previously mentioned accessibility at end game, high tier content is easier accessed through sheer ilvl of a titan forge which means that there will be a sudden influx of more people with the gear for the raid having LFR equipped titanforges or Warfront/world quest titanforged pieces queueing for raid where as you could likely of previously filtered them with a ILvl requirement. What does this mean? People are being or now further used to being occasionally over-rewarded by titan forge system which makes up for player controlled LFG systems to a lesser extent, for the casual player only making this realistically set in stone for a large number of players being accustomed to the sensation of getting heroic or mythic tier gear from easy content occasionally.
Whereas with commited players the issue is now not only are there incapable people with gear to compete with filtering through, there is now the issue of replayability sky rocketing to a point where your BIS item might be from a previous raid (if it titanforges.) realistically and theoretically doubling or trippling play time of grinding out-dated content to achieve your once again BIS trinket or weapon with x-stats whereas it used to be: new gear from raid > old gear from raid. Unless proved otherwise via sims/play testing.
This is alot. Can I have a TL:DR yes you can, cause its a messy one to read.
Casual players = scared to commit time to the game, cant accept the fact that LFR is for them and M+0 this is their content more or less or low keys / maybe normal first few bosses. last resort to leech off players who activley clear high end content in hopes of getting free gear and a tour of high end content aka just more numbers, same dungeon while expecting class depth to be numbed enough to the point where the difference between him and the Blizzcon player/mythic raiders/whatever else should be hard to tell apart if at all.
Commited players = game depth/class design/game knowledge heavily valued, pruning does more harm than good. (refer to x-video for analysis on why pruning/nerfing is bad - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsC8io4w1sY). If you want to get into groups with these kind of people, pug your way in, show experience/class knowledge by playing with friends, guildies or randoms - get the first hand experience and fear of taking in faceless nobodies to your group and lastly titanforging is a sin as it forces double downed the amount of grinding while influencing less euphoric experiences through the means of LFR can now theoretically give gear better than yours.
My own 2 cents on current state wow is you can tell the pruning done to cater to new players/older / more casual players or giga younger audiences by merely comparing every class change from Mists of pandaria/Cata down to BFA. With every iteration of the game past mists we lost more than we gained leaving us with the emptiness of coming into a new expansion with basically nothing. (sorry for this being such a long post, I just hate subjects like this.)
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I dont think this is true at all. People arent scared to commit - sometimes they just cant because of real-life commitments, doesnt mean they’re afraid
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I’m more than welcome to link you many many threads if you want about being incapable of getting dungeon groups for progression etc due to elitist behaviour and the game being “too hard” more so than having time to do it, your choice honestly. Most of what written is off speculation of how players behave in the game.
I dont doubt your perception but what you perceive as a fear of committing their time or dedication if that word makes you feel better is simply a sick child, dinner for their spouse, work, real-life social activities etc…none of which should lead you to believe that it’s a fear
I don’t get into any groups anymore. I am just done now. My last week 15 hours signing no groups did the final. But I leech? as healer? with half of my highest dungeons done with grievous?
You really know how to speak to a Dwarf, you know ? ![:smiley:](https://d1bg94bbsh66ji.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/smiley.png?v=6" ":smiley:")
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Doesn’t mean the game should do everything it can to cater to them either because unless they want to give preferential treatment which they dont itll also affect the vast majority who do find time to sink into it
I have a fulltime job and spend a handful of hours outside that learning and practicing, personally I do not find statisfaction in Blizzard moving the goalpost to me rather then letting me reach the goalpost
I agree and I didnt say that because you put your real-life first you have to be able to reach the dizzy heights of those who can put in more hours - all I said was that people dont not commit their time because of fear but because they have a different set of priorities.
The problem I think Blizz has is that they’re trying to please everyone in every single aspect - it’s human nature that you can only do a few things well and the rest will be ‘ok’
You’re completely missing the point OP.
You’ve defined “elites” and then compared them to “casuals”
“Elites” and “elitists” are not the same thing. By your definition I’m an elite. I get a decent amount of Cutting Edges, I have a highish raider io score and so on. But I’m not an “elitist”
An elitist is “a person who believes a society or system should be ruled by an elite”.
Wow has place for all types of players and they should coexist. I don’t begrudge people lfr or other “casual” content, having said that, where the friction happens is the rewards and access to that content. I believe rewards should be in line with effort or skill. I also believe access to content should be inline with effort or skill.
As an example, when someone says, but I should get “xxx as a reward” because I pay a sub too they hide behind “casual”. Thats not casual, thats entitled.
When someone thinks being decked out in welfare gear with a 405 ilevel and a 1k raider io score entitles them to be picked for a +15, thats entitled.
This has nothing to do with casuals or elitists sometimes, people just throw words around, and in my opinion thats just what you did. Words are just words, search for the intent or meaning behind them.
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just a couple of points i don’t agree to here Tahra. don’t really know for sure how casual friendly is wow now, but vanilla tbc etcc was unfriendly to casuals only if you wanted to do things like raid or high level dungeons (maybe). If you didn’t have the time/will (not sure will is the right word, i’m italian and i feel it has a different weight to what i want to say in english than in italian) you had story, levelling ( which was no short feat) professions etc… in the current iteration of wow levelling is just a chore and professions are the least interactive thing in the game, so now the only content are wq, m+, raids and arena (i see it like this and can only speak for myself even if i feel like a lot of people agree with me).
Regarding the Learning curve it is kinda all over the place, there was a really cool video of i think classic wind(?), not really sure, that compared the lerning curve of old wow and retail wow. try watcing it, even if you don’t agree it’s well made and interesting nonetheless and reflect at least my experience with this game (Learning curve wise).
last thing i want to say is, i think you’re being too negative, i don’t think that most of the people just want to feel better than someone else, if they enjoy getting the best loot in the game it’s frustrating when a huge rng wall apperas and doesn’t let you reach what you want, that’s why most people don’t like titanforging/sockets etc… Also as i said in another post if someone likes this type of rng he should go play slot machines imo cause it’s basically what he/she’s doing right know if he/she cares about gear, and if you don’t care of/need the gear why bother defending this system that doesn’t affect your gameplay? all it does if you are really casual is show a slightly higher number and that’s it, but if you care at least a bit about your character’s gear progression completely ruins your experience imo and if it doeasn’t ruin it, it makes it unnecessarily tedious.
Anyway wrote this in a rush so forgive me if it’s not well explained/clear, hope it at least makes for a good point of discussion.
There is no “different” playstyle. Just their attention would have shifted to different part of the screen.
Also being at the top is like 30% talent and 70% hard work (playing non stop).
I’d call it honest and realistic.
Agree to disagree then.
To what end? Exactly… to make themselves feel better about themself, to make themselves feel more powerful than someone else. Those are exactly the type of reasons I’m talking about.
With respect: Some people. You don’t know what ‘most’ people like or dislike.
That’s just silly. We all like this game (for different reasons). So telling people to go gamble is silly.
I am defending it because removing it (without providing a good alternative) WOULD impact my gameplay.
No that’s not it. That’s how you might perceive it, but that’s not all it does.
It does many things for a casual player;
- It creates a way to keep advancing your character doing the content you like.
- It helps keep the lower-difficulty content from becoming totally obsolete.
- It closes the gap between players who do ‘casual’ content and those who do the higher difficulties (this is good for numerous reasons).
- It creates an extra incentive for players running content that’s below their ilvl range (to help out a friend for instance).
- It’s fun to get a random ‘prize’ every now and then. It’s exciting.
So saying “all it does if you are really casual is show a slightly higher number and that’s it” is very shortsighted and narrowminded.
That’s your opinion. But why is it ruined? You still get rewards for doing content. That’s the regular progression. So that’s not ruined, just added onto.
And why does it become tedious? Because you feel you need to grind to get TF procs? That’s on YOU then, not on the system. You don’t need to do any such thing.
Likewise, I hope my replies don’t seem overly aggressive or based on a wrong assumption based on your feedback. I get passionate when defending TF.
As WoW supported addons for so long (and boss mods exist for very long in particular), this is only speculation, but I think it would played in a more defensive manner, if players would lack exact timers in similar fights like we have now or it would be more tank and spank gameplay in general, if Blizzard thinks it would be to hard without those mods.
In addition other addons also impact gameplay, easy configuration of UI removes clutter or centers important information. Easy configuration of healing frames probably makes healing more accessible (while mouse over macros would work pretty similar I think Vuhdo and others are easier).
I think gameplay would look a lot different without those addons.
And what makes you think current top end in WoW are bad, because they rely on their addons?
I think a large portion of the current top players got drawn in by a general WoW impression they had and a big portion of their talent would be present in a non addon WoW. And I guess hard work would still be the biggest part.
So why do you think they are bad? Because they use advantages to the maximum they are allowed to? - Guess most sports elite is bad then.
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Those bloody addon elitists took our loot!
Don’t worry mate, i get passionate when defending things i like too ahah i should have added that yes, someting should replace it, and i think the best we can get is a way lower cap for tf/wf for the gear that you get outside of m+ and raids and tokens that let you upgrade the gear you get in m+ and raids (the tokens should come from the raid/m+) I think this would be the best solution to give rewards to people that want/have the time to do the hardest content in the game without devaluating the effort, and a way for casuals to get a bit of excitement and progression outside of raid and m+. Anyway, i agree that some parts of my previous post may be biased but i really do believe that this current implementation of gearing is similar to gambling. Have a great day.
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Well aren’t you quite the buzzkill.
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Depends on what you mean by this exactly.
If you mean ‘straight up content’, then that is an elitist thought.
If you want certain content to only be accessible to a small percentage of the playerbase; that’s not okay.
So for instance:
Saying ‘mythic raiding’ should require a certain effort and skill. That’s totally fine.
Saying ‘all raids’ should require a certain effort and skill. That’s not fine.
That’s why we have the different difficulties and that’s a good thing. So everyone can experience content ‘in their own way’.
Do I except the same rewards for doing a LFR as a Mythic raid? No, of course not.
But…
I only agree with this to a degree.
The gap between such players shouldn’t be too big. That’s bad for all kinds of reasons. So I do think that giving players access to gear that’s beyond what content they do is a good thing. But granted, BfA has overdone it with, for instance, the Warfront rewards.
I won’t get into my reasons here. Too personal. Not on topic.
But you saying that truly boils my blood.
I’ve had alcohol problems in my life, that doesn’t mean I have to be a debbie downer whenever someone mentions it.