I agree with most points except 3:
PvP Power on gear - do you want to add extra stat to the gear in TBC? Did I understand it correctly? I don’t like that idea. It should stay as it is now.
Cross faction arenas - absolutetly not. This would cause minmaxers going above and beyond. Not to mention this probably would affect only small portion of players who are at the top. The game is designed to have 2 factions and please stick to it.
Class stacking - let’s be real, even though double dog is terrible and people should /spit on these players I don’t see a reason banning it. This is your purely personal goal and we all know you play healer classes and it’s terrible experience to face double dog.
The rest is nice to have, especially solo shuffle, rewards from 2s and 5s etc.
Thanks for writing this up and trying to be constructive. Althought i agree with a lot, i feel like this is lacking some changes for the bigger population, that aren’t as high raited.
Some Changes i would like to see (my focus here is mainly on TBC anniversary arena):
no more arena teams
conquest catchup system needs to be implemented
reduce cost of PVP gear
Cross realm arenateams
PVP tab in the LFG tool
These are the minimum requirements.
Nice to have, but controversial:
some more rewards for aquiring different raitings (e.g. cosmetics)
Solo que
Some small balance changes (e.g. nerf Rogue blind by increasing its cd. Rogue beeing the op class in TBC with most glad titels, needs a little nerf)
Agree here with Pojke, but want to write some my thoughts of this.
PvP Power on s12 Gear:
The s12 PvP gear doesn’t have PvP Power on it and this might cause a huge imbalance. I’d encourage adding it.
I had experience of 5.4.3 with s12 PvP gear and i can say that healers will be unkillable. There was a good solution for this problem: you can make BG gear equal to 522 on arenas and BGs; arena gear make equal to 550 when you enter any pvp event.
In 5.4.3 and s12 season you will have resilience from 2 sources: pvp trinkets and standard Blizz resil. As people will have low main stats and low pvp-power, arenas will be hell. If to speak about RBG there will be hell x3 as you don`t have dampening there. Damage will be to low.
Solo Shuffle/Support System:
I think the best option will be soloq for 1 game as normal 3x3 arena but with randoms. Also there can’t be shuffle (6 matches play as we have on retail) because we don’t have so good synergy of same classes. For example i am playing resto druid and i don’t want to see balance and feral it my team. What should i do with Symbiosis in this situation?
We have a problem starting from s11 season, as we don’t have cross server channel to look for mates. It’s a BIG problem. If we have same in MoP it will ruin all PvP.
P.S. If someone want to play 5x5 for fun now in Cata we queue every friday at 19:30 Gehennas time (about two and a half hour queue). We have around 4-6 teams. Also going to make some queue in tuesday starting from this week (same time). Make you 5c team and lets have fun. Only we can make WoW great again by our activity.
Sadly its difficult to convince people to play a game that is completely neglected by its developer.
As good as mop pvp might be, it wont be good enough to be a success with this company.
Them purposefully removing the crossrealm lfg just so they can get a few bucks from xfers to firemaw/gehennas is the final nail in the coffin.
2v2 needs to have titles. its a sick joke that you removed them. It is so much easier to find one person that u vibe with than 2 in this game. and 2v2 is such an important bracket for learning what other classes do etc. also class stacking and having tank specs in arena needs to be a no-no. I dont care at all if theres solo q or not. it’d be nice. but as we saw in wkmz server it took away from real 3v3/2v2.
I like every little point Minpojke mentioned here. I was someone who played a lot in all season of TBC classic and it was insanely hard to be reach Gladiator with so many professional players gatekeeping with multiple characters. I absolutely hope Blizzard either adopts the retail gladiator system or implements reserved slots for gladiator instead of the %-system. It would push PvP/Arena-participation tremendously and really improve PvP. Blizz needs to realize that PvP would be a lot more popular if they’d spend a bit more effort on the Arena scene. With TBC class anniversary coming I hope blizzard listens to Minpojke. Thanks to him for making this huge thread.
Thanks for what you are doing for the community Minpojke. Here are some of things i like that could increase participation.
Bring LFG back for pvp/improve it, crossfaction, faction balance on servers and/or ONE mega pvp server maybe merge all of them → increase world pvp which was so fun back in mop.
Glad slots or a number of win in like the top 3% of people above 1.6 (in 2s, 3s and 5s)
3v3
Soloq with only one round and facing only ppl in soloq aswell. Possible de get glad in this bracket
Transferrable honnor/conquest, increase pvp honnor per BG
Add pvp power to season 12 (please no PVE)
This would increase participation, please this expansion is the best for pvp, take your chance to show that you still care about us pvpers
Good post. I don’t agree with a lot but it’s good if Blizzard pays any attention to PvP.
I disagree completely, I think awarding Gladiator from 2s makes 2s the primary bracket which is a complete joke and not at all a classic rendition of MoP. 2s is a joke bracket in MoP, completely unbalanced, and it has ~3 viable comps (just like how Cata 2s now has ~3 viable comps). Due to how low the skill cap is in 2s it’s barely possible to overcome the comp balance with skill - even at low skill levels. People will tell immediately that unless you and your friend play any of the chosen comps, you may as well not compete - and they will quit. Cata, MoP, WoD etc is not TBC or even WotLK (which had some semblance of balance in 2s left since Glad was only removed from 2s after S6).
It won’t have the magical effect that you are hoping for, and it will ruin any semblance of re-creating the magic of MoP PvP as it will be completely focused around 2s (which MoP wasn’t, at all).
The nature of 2s is not “slower paced” if you are not playing a healer/dps comp. Your post is written completely from the perspective of a healer.
Anyone who plays double DPS comps (Rogue/Moonkin or a number of other less viable but nevertheless fun 2s comps in MoP that rely on resetting and healing) will be omega hamstrung if for some random reason they get hit by dampening after only 3 minutes.
This reduction in time to dampening can be implemented if both teams are healer/dps teams only, but if either of the teams is without a healer it should stay the same as it was in original MoP - as it would otherwise completely shift the MoP 2s meta even more in favour of the already superior but super boring healer/dps setups.
I agree, but it should be either Challenger 35% / Rival 10% / Duelist 3.0% / Gladiator 0.5% / R1 Gladiator 0.1% or a set number of slots, whichever one provides the most slots.
Now I don’t think this will be an issue regardless since I don’t think a lot of people will ever return to Classic after WotLK (rip Cata and onwards, Cata/MoP/WoD were my favorites), but it definitely should be set up this way so that we don’t end up in the reverse problem with too few spots, because it’s hardcoded to 250/100 slots, if MoP really spikes in participation.
And again, 2v2 and 5v5 should not at all grant any Gladiator or R1 Gladiator titles. See above.
Yeah I just don’t want the retail system, straight up. It’s not Classic at all. No end of season hype or pushes (unless you’re around R1, which ~99.8% aren’t by definition).
Yup, agreed. We should be lenient and let the alts count towards extra spots in the system - but the alts (especially those of the same class as another with a higher rating) shouldn’t “soak” title slots. They should just get the rewards on the alts without soaking a title slot.
Just make it a regular solo/duo queue, not “shuffle” and make it queue into the regular normal 3v3 bracket - making it so that people can bond and queue together if they find people they played well with in solo - while at the same time not detracting from the real classic game mode (as retail has, where regular premade arena is practically dead).
Are you going to beat premade teams? No, perhaps not - but you’ll probably make friends whom you can queue as a premade with along the way - the way it was intended, with friends - not solo.
It’d basically be a form of forced friend-making - throwing people into serious competitive games together, unlike the LFG finder tool where people (myself included) are just very picky and there’s a lot of resistance to get started playing together.
On the fence on this one. I am not sure I want to see Orc/Human or whatever other strange and potentially OP racial ability combinations that weren’t a thing in original MoP. Not sure there really are any such combos, but there could be some situations where people let their healers be Orc to make them near impossible to kill in stunlocks while letting the DPSers be Human for an extra offensive trinket.
If “mercenary mode” forces you to temporarily change Racial then of course it is perfectly fine.
That and the fact that cross-server LFG is/was broken for the longest time is completely mind-boggling.
The fact that the algorithm isn’t smarter, automatically taking games played ove rtime, reward key points etc into account in order to create a good MMR curve throughout the season is… hard to grasp.
You’re talking about keeping the game alive and letting people play what they want, but then you go about trying to ban comps that you dislike facing.
Extremely boring to face this stuff. But as I said above, it was part of original MoP and some people like it. If I had to ban choose between banning double Rogue or double healer it’d be double healer every day of the week.
Yup. Main reason I quit Cata after getting Glad in S9 - I knew the joy of the game would be killed by OP boring proc based PvE gear as well as just mandatory stat re-allocation out of resilience via regular PvE gear with good stat allocations - and having to farm all that week after week to remain viable.
Farming all that PvE just to get to experience awful PvP gameplay as a direct consequence of said PvE gear, aswell, was such a turn off.
Many people never even got to experience their classes at “how they’re supposed to play” and just quit early on in S9 because they realized they weren’t going to raid (enough) to be viable.
And yes, PvPers in general do think like this, not just the top players. If PvPers don’t think they can ever get on even terms because of lack of time / interest (in another aspect of the game, even) etc they oftentimes don’t even bother to play.
Here’s my elaborate response to why i think this is wrong.
1. End-of-Season Rewards for 2v2 and 5v5 Arenas
Original Argument: Reintroducing titles will motivate casual players and increase participation.
Counterpoint:
Titles in 2v2 and 5v5 risk devaluing the prestige of PvP titles, especially since these brackets can be highly unbalanced (e.g., healer/DPS in 2v2 dominating most matchups). Encouraging competition in less balanced formats could reinforce meta abuse rather than skillful play. Keeping exclusive titles in 3v3 upholds the integrity of WoW’s most balanced bracket.
2. Earlier Dampening (3 min for 2v2, 5 min for 3v3)
Original Argument: Earlier dampening makes games shorter and avoids “nothing happening” until late-game.
Counterpoint:
Starting dampening too early undermines compositions that rely on attrition or setup-based strategies. It compresses viable playstyles into only burst or heavy offensive comps. Instead, a nuanced approach (e.g., dynamically scaling dampening based on healing output) may preserve diversity in viable team comps.
3. Fixed Reward Slots Instead of Percentage-Based Titles
Original Argument: Fixed ranks (e.g., top 100 = R1) make titles more attainable and encourage more people to play.
Counterpoint:
Fixed rewards don’t scale with ladder population. If participation drops, those titles lose their competitive value. Percentage-based rewards automatically adjust for participation and ensure that titles remain exclusive and meaningful, preserving the reward’s prestige.
4. Retail Gladiator System or Custom Slot Rewards
Original Argument: Custom slots or a 2400+ win-based system (like retail) make goals more realistic.
Counterpoint:
The Retail system is often criticized for promoting low-effort title grinding late in the season once MMR inflates. Custom slots risk the same issue unless the system accounts for rating inflation, activity, and bracket population. It could lead to disincentives to queue once a slot is secured.
5. Prevent Players from Taking Multiple Reward Slots
Original Argument: One player should only take up one spot in the reward pool, not multiple with alts.
Counterpoint:
While this improves diversity in reward distribution, it may unintentionally penalize multi-class players and reduce high-end competition. Some players push alts for variety or to optimize team comps; restricting them might reduce high-skill presence in the ladder ecosystem.
6. Add PvP Power to S12 Gear
Original Argument: PvP Power is essential for balance and should be added to ensure gear parity.
Counterpoint:
PvP Power can heavily limit class diversity by favoring specs that scale well with it and locking players out of alternative gearing methods. Some players enjoy hybrid PvE/PvP playstyles, and hard-locking gear to PvP stats can reduce overall game variety and experimentation.
7. Solo Shuffle vs. Improved LFG System
Original Argument: Improve LFG instead of adding Solo Shuffle to avoid undermining 3v3 and team dynamics.
Counterpoint:
Solo Shuffle has empirically increased PvP participation in Retail because it eliminates the biggest barrier: social friction. While team-based PvP has merit, the reality is most players simply don’t have the time or energy to coordinate teams. An opt-in solo mode helps keep the mode alive.
8. Cross-Faction Arenas
Original Argument: Allowing cross-faction queueing improves participation and QoL.
Counterpoint:
While cross-faction systems do improve queue times, they can erode the identity and thematic flavor of PvP. Faction rivalry has been core to WoW’s identity. Merging the two dilutes that conflict and could further homogenize gameplay.
9. MMR Inflation from the Start
Original Argument: Players need to feel progress early; otherwise, they get discouraged and quit.
Counterpoint:
Over-inflating MMR too early leads to distortion of rating integrity. Players can reach inflated ratings without mastery, causing misaligned matchmaking and undermining title prestige. A more consistent inflation model might be better than front-loading it.
10. Disable Class Stacking in Arena
Original Argument: Class stacking (e.g., double rogue) leads to stale and overpowered metas.
Counterpoint:
Class stacking restrictions limit player creativity and can penalize friends or players with limited alt options. Instead of banning comps, Blizzard could rebalance overpowered class synergies or add diminishing returns for same-class synergy.
11. PvE Requirements for PvP Gear
Original Argument: PvE for BiS PvP gear was a mistake; MoP solves that.
Counterpoint:
While separating PvE and PvP gearing helps balance, some crossover ensures PvE relevance for PvP players and vice versa. Fully siloed systems can make the game feel compartmentalized and discourage community interaction across game modes.
why would you come to this thread, copy-paste a terrible slop response from chatgpt for the sake of ruining a chance of these changes being made? you clearly don’t pvp. what’s your problem actually?
In my opinion, they should just implement 2-3 simple QoL changes:
1. Disable racials in PvP. (Let people finally pick the race they like without feeling punished for it) 2. Enable cross-faction play. 3. Disable professions in PvP. (Less critical, but it would be a huge improvement for the average player who doesn’t want to level professions from 1 to 600 for the millionth time)
Why that? The amount of whiners will increase when they can just log on the opposite alt and flame along.
I know it is possible with two accounts, but that’s not for all to have - especially not “the kids”
Insane to believe there is so much need for minor changes in PvP and it looks like Blizzard really does not care. We won’t see those changes happening in MoP and therefore not in TBC
Theres some small changes that can make an impressive change imo.
Soloque for 3s with random teamsetups.
people use a lot of time in LFG tool to find partners to then get ditched if they dont win first game. Seriously the only reward from soloque could be a new random Title. etc. This encourage people to play arena/pvp eventho none of their friends are online. Who knows, maybe you find a DPS or Healer that u like playing with in solo que, and decide to play with them else where.
Dampening in Mop 2s needs to start Asap whenever facing Healer+dps vs healer+dps.
The current state of the game is so long and stale in 2s that games avg vs decent players takes 20+ mins everygame waiting for dampening.
Another thing that needs a lot of attention is to have dampening kicking in faster in both 2v2, 3v3 and now 5v5. In this day and age people are good and aware enough to not die before dampening and having dampening kick in after 2.5 minutes in healer dps vs healer dps 2v2 (keep it at 5 minutes in healer dps vs double dps), and after 5 minutes in 3v3 and 5v5 aswell as ramping up faster would be a quick and easy solution to the game feeling tremendously better.
Minpojke, posting via his alt to influence devs, prompts me to revisit MoP arena participation and explain why earlier dampening won’t boost participation.
I’ll repost my boy Sazzi first:
Yes, games can last longer with well-rotated CDs. However that already contradicts your main goal of participation because non-tryhards below 2k will eventually make mistakes, overlap, be too slow, or have fewer WeakAuras that scream at them to press block, and then die. We need to address barriers to play, and dampening is not an issue for the regular player base. Players won’t quit because a 3s match doesn’t end after 8 minutes; that’s a really far-fetched thesis.
Dampening is really bad because making it kick in earlier will only enable and solidify/narrow down the MoP meta even faster. Dampener comps will dominate even more easily into a free win, which will ultimately bury comp variety and, in the end, participation. Back in S15, the meta was still not as refined as it will be this time around. You seriously can’t argue that the players who keep this game alive will enjoy playing either dampener mirrors or just a very small variety of comps that can beat them—and facing only a small pool of viable comps is not fun, we can all agree on that.
I agree with Buspelle (Minpojke) that dampening could stack faster (after kicking in at 10 minutes, as it did in MoP), allowing games to end around 15 minutes instead of the original 20. That way games can’t last too long and on the same hand do not enable turtling un-fun combs.
Quote from a bluepost:
"No need for alarm – we’ll be hotfixing Dampening back to a 10-minute start time (with Arena matches ending at 20 minutes).
As you might be aware, the WoW Arena Invitational at BlizzCon was configured to have Dampening begin at 5 minutes, with a 15-minute round timer. Those changes were intended solely for BlizzCon, but made it over to live servers as part of the 5.4.2 patch. Again, this was unintentional, and we’ll be hotfixing things back to normal ASAP."
