I explain why this matters: Out of 200 reasonable options, the best 20 people will get cycled into groups way more frequently than the bottom 20 people. The higher the amount of alternatives a group leader can select from, the more selective the group leader is gonna be. So from a micro-economic perspective, one can fix that by reducing the amount of alternatives a group leader is confronted with by capping the amount of sign ups per time period. If you select from 30 dps, you take the 3 best probably, and someoneâs likelihood of belonging to the 3 best is low. But if a group leader can only select from 6-9 dps, then your likelihood of being in the top 3 is way higher than before as an average player suitable for a key.
So the reason people want automatic queue is to remove selectivity completely, but one can also just reduce it by keeping LFG and capping the amount of alternatives for a decision maker.
OK. You proposed a very fancy algorithm. But just like in physics, there is a thing called conservation of mass.
Whatever you do. Whatever algorithm you choose. It⊠does⊠not⊠matterâŠ
There will STILL be 197 DDs waiting in line. So what exactly are you trying to solve here?
Basically what you are saying is the following:
Now you got 200 DDs. That apply to keys and get rejected.
With your system, you get a subset of those (say 100), allow them to apply to keys. And the other 100 you dont even let them apply to ANY key at all.
So. You go from 200 DDs waiting in Donorgal looking at the LFG. To 100 DDs waiting in Donorgal (because again, only 3 will get into your +10, the other 97 will wait)⊠and 100 DDs waiting in Donorgal looking at the sky cause they cant even apply to groups in LFG.
Conservation of mass. All you are doing is this:
If DD (A) is a gigachad and gets into keys faster with less wait. And DD (B) waits for 1h. Now its DD (A) that waits for 1h. And DD (B) that dosent.
But SOMEONE still waits for 1h. You solved nothing.
Because (following your example) there is only ONE +10 key. Because while there are 200 DDs, there is only ONE tank, and ONE healer.
I think you didnât understand my point. The point is to reduce the disparity between people with the shortest waiting time and people with the longest waiting time by reducing matching market selectivity in LFG by capping sign ups per group per time period. If you donât understand what I mean, you can ask something, but I think you donât know what I mean. Else there is AI that can put what I say in different words maybe.
Also, the good thing about my solution is that it would not impact people at extremely high keys too, because they can set their criteria narrowly enough in sign up filter that they get too few applicants anyway. Itâs basically an improvement for everyone, and a slight deterioration for people joining low crest farming keys, if they are overpowered, but they have very low waiting time anyway
OK. DDs that dont wait for a long time are usually Gigachad DDs. Those that wait longer times are NOT Gigachads. âqualifiedâ, as you put it, is not a âminimumâ. There are âmore qualifiedâ people than others.
And that impacts the success rate of your key.
If you lower the success rate of the keys, what you are doing is: Telling people that not only do they have to wait for ages to get into a group. But ON TOP of that, there are high chances of being paired with noobs that will brick your key.
Are you 100%, POSITIVELY sure you want something like that?
The shortage in Healer/Tank/DD is less severe in high keys. So there is less of a problem. In high keys, we got other problems (meta comps, 1-shots, ectâŠ)⊠But not this.
This problem is severe in LOW keys. In particular, +10s and +12s where most of the people play.
And lets put it this way. You got your +10. And you want your vault. Do you want to play with a rogue that will die on every pull. Risk bricking the key. You risk having to 4 man the key. You risk the tank/healer simply Alt-F4 your keyâŠ
And you are left with a +9. No vault. And now⊠you have to play that key for 1h and 30 min to get your vault slot.
ORâŠ
You invite 3x 3300 DD that also want their vault. And then you can 3 chest your +10 in 15 minutes. In less time than it would take to do 1 heroic dungeon. With the tank literally just pressing W with out caring. And the healer bored out of his mind because there is nothing to heal.
Yes exactly, thatâs the problem, and why people ask for automatic matchmaking. We both know that automatic match making has many issues, because you need to have a little bit of selectivity to lower risk of failure to a reasonable amount. So instead of reducing selectivity to zero, why not just cap the selectivity to a healthy degree. Maybe if a group leader can only select from 10 people every 5 minutes, they will be more reasonable with choosing a risk-adequate team member, and not wait for someone that is âtooâ low risk. This increases the time cost of being more selective substantually, while not being too invasive. Thatâs basically a compromise, where you lose almost nothing, and it just makes people have waiting times, that are more convex
You cannot stop overqualified people from joining keys. Nor should you.
Last week for example I had no time to play. And had 6/8 in the fault. It was a Tuesday and I needed 2 keys for vault. I did 2 +10s.
People should have a right to do this.
The issue here is that there are MORE gigachad overqualified DDs than there are healers and tanks. You can have gigachad DDs on ALL the keys if you wanted to.
How do you solve this? More tanks and more healers. That way, YES, you could end up with a gigachad DD. But there would not be enough âgigachadsâ for all the keys. Forcing you to drop the bar on âqualityâ.
JUST LIKE WITH HEALERS AND TANKS by the way. Because we can get away with sub-par rio and sub-par ilvl. Just because we are in such high demand.
Can you please just ask an AI to explain what I said in other words, because I have explained it now 3 times, and maybe I donât communicate it very well.
Even if you have a perfect split between tanks/healer/dps in the game, people will still be more selective, the more people sign up, because 1 group leader always has a demand capped to exactly 4 additional slots. Think about it. Even if we have perfect split, the selectivity is still gonna cause higher waiting times in LFG for some people. How can I explain it differently, so you get it?
If you have a perfect split between tanks healer and DPS⊠When you put your key in LFG, you wont have 200 DDs applying. You will only have 4. And you need 3. And you better be fast accepting them. They might accept someone elseâs key and not be available.
And I know this is 100% true. Because itâs exactly what happens with tanks and healers. Nobody waits for a âgigachadâ healer. Because a âgood enoughâ healer might only be available for 1 minute before he isent any longer.
Which is exactly what you want. And I dont need ChatGPT to know that. EXCEPT that your solution dosent solve the main problem: Wait times.
So basically. You are suggesting a band-aid that wont solve anything. Because it gives some advantages, but also major disadvantages (which you ignore, and should read my posts with ChatGpt). But most importantly, it dosent address the big white elephant in the room either.
WAIT TIMES.
In other words. Solve wait times. And what that literally means is that ANY DD (the ânot gigachadâ AND the âgigachadâ) will not wait for 2h getting rejected in LFG. It means that ANY DD will log in, go to LFG, apply for 4 or 5 groups and in 2 minutes get invited. THAT is what solving wait times means.
And you do that by changing gameplay such that more people choose to tank/heal. Thereby improving the ratio between healers/tanks/DDs.
There isnât really anything to have a root cause fix, you can only marginally improve it, but honestly, I will take a long break from wow anyway and see if they fixed some stuff later on. I was only coming back to play remix, but I donât really feel like it atm. Something I think we can agree on is that Blizzard seems terminally overwhelmed, and that automated queues are bad.
I agree with your solution of making more ppl play healer, itâs just not what I was talking about, because itâs 2 separate angles.
That would probably work too but for me personally, Iâd rather have reslitient being X+1. I donât mind the challenge if I can try THAT challenge over and over again but doing it on a tier lower just to get back to the challenge is⊠weird.
We also donât have to kill Dimensius HC after wiping on Dimensius Mythic once, to get back to trying him on Mythic.
But I agree, for the majority of players a hidden % buff would be enough âencouragementâ to keep going.
And why is this incorrect? It is 100% correct. If that was untrue as you say, then there would be zero reason to justify a SoloQ for qualified DPS.
OK. SO all your algorithm does is this:
You go from waiting 2h to waiting 1h and 50 minutes.
You significantly decrease the completion rate of keys.
Is that what this solves?
What exactly are you advocating for here? Are you trying to solve DD wait times? OR⊠are you salty because you personally dont get invites and want Daddy Blizzard to force people to invite you?
Be clear please. Use ChatGPT for this if you need it.
Because your math dosent add up.
Let me repeat: ITS A ZERO SUM GAME.
And in this case, LFG is 100% superior. Because right now you have the option of running your own key. You can post it and choose yourself a tank, a healer, and whoever else you want. A matchmaking system you cant do that anymore. You are FORCED to wait 40 minutes.
How do you think all those OVERqualified DPS got to be OVERqualified? Magic? Blizzard suddenly gave them a magic âinvite wandâ? NO. They put the time and effort. You did not. Simple.
Ok so in essence, both of you are correct. Iâll try to boil down the issue here:
What you are saying is that, no matter what system you implement, the same amount of DPS players will have to wait, which is correct.
Broduin however is stating that a SoloQ system would be beneficial to bad DPS players because theyâll, on average, find more groups because obviously manually curated groups will always tend to pick the more giga-chaddy DPS players, instead of the bad/average ones, while an automated system is less biased.
So in essence:
Solo Q is beneficial for: bad/average DPS
Solo Q is bad for: tanks, healers and gigachad DPS
The thing is that Rio inflation and no-deplete are two different things that can coexist. Both can, and should, be implemented at the same time.
No deplete is supposed to be a QoL improvement. And I agree with you. I am trying to get my resi 16 and flood/prio are an absolute pain to time on +16. 1 tiny mistake and thatâs it. Back to 15.
The rio inflation is supposed to achieve something else. Say that they removed depletes. And now I would be wiping 400 times in Prio +17. So now, Prio +17 for me is like Tindral in DF. How many wipes until I get sick of wiping and quit the game?
Itâs called âsensation of progressâ. Its a thing in videogames. And it works. Itâs a way to artificially streach the time it takes to quit the game. Because, on average, people take longer to L2P than they take to loose patience and quit. That is kinda what it wants to solve.
I still have PTSD from my prio 15. Timers are extremly tight on both dungeons and both have rather harsh pulls almost all the time. Iâm so glad I donât have to heal priory this season, lol.
Turbo boost kinda is the rio inflation though, no? I mean yes, itâs just a 1 time thing and stops once you upgraded all your items to max, not continuos as your aura buff suggestion, but it kinda at least tries to achieve the same thing.
Absolutely. But all a 1-time buff does is to create a spike that decays over time. A weekly 2% aura buff achieves the same thing, but stretched out over the whole season.
Or in other words: Instead of 1 patch with the turbo boost with 3 more upgrades, how about⊠every month you get 1 more upgrade. Something like that.
I would also like the reward system to change a bit. I dont think this is healthy:
There should not be a key level where you have âa rewardâ and then thatâs it. I would like to see something else.
I have wanted to ditch the vault as it is now. And instead simply give Crests to people (uncapped) that allows you to buy things. The higher the key level, the more crests you get. And the weekly cap is would be how many crests you can spend on gear upgrades. Not how many you can loot.
Yeah I can see that boost participation numbers throughout the season.
However this increases one gripe I have with M+ and that is pushing really is just worth it during the end of the season (if you consider going for title), with max gear basically and max aura buff.
On the topic of upgrades â give us a fail-safe for the great vault ffs.
I absolutely agree that there need to be more rewards. Between KSL (3k) and title (0.1%) is an incredibly huge gap.
Mounts, transmog, titles, whatever. Give us things to work towards because for the vast majority of 3k players, title is not realistic at all.
Iâd assume with certain rating requirements associated? Like you have to have at least a rating of 3.2k to buy mythic gear. Obviously instead those crests could also just be âtier-dâ by the level of keys you ran.
Would kinda eliminate the âjust run 8 10s for vaultâ thing, so players who want myth track gear have to run higher keys.
Itâs something Blizzard will never implement though, I reckon, no matter how much I would love this.
Simply because it would âpiss of raidloggersâ and âwe need to keep raiding aliveâ.