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[Blithere-argent-dawn (Blithere)]

Yeah and you’d probably still be with them. It’s just because negativity pushes people away

people just want to roleplay essentially, the majority of your members aren’t invested in your personal vendettas

[Gobbert-argent-dawn (Gobbert)]

why block people.

the world needs move love, ladies and gentlemen

[Gibletts-argent-dawn]

@Gizzyfius-argent-dawn

Not to even mention the fact that strictly business/social oriented Guilds like Oilgut and CCC had very little to actually do in the structure of Shatteref Shield due to it mostly being warbands, etc.

We had all sorts planned and in the works for the warbands but they tended to not show up or even better have there own events the same day even though they promised to come.

@Gizzyfius-argent-dawn

The hate CCC got made very little sense and the distaste some people had towards Kilgun as well.

Oh don’t get me started on that, the amount of times i had to walk away from my pc during voice chat meetings…

[Umay-argent-dawn]

I hope for once this post gets read in its entirety, because I think the subject matter is important.

I’m going to post an example of a lack of self-awareness that bothered me recently - I would have replied in the thread but it got locked before I could. I assume it’s a lack of self-awareness, based on the protests against OOC’ers/ etc on the behalf of the PCU, but from the Rabies thread:

@Stonetower-argent-dawn

When you constantly engage with a thread, you lose the ol’ victim playing [card]

Now to me that seems to be saying that if you respond or engage with your harassers on the platform that you are being harassed on, “you lose the ol’ victim playing [card]” because responding to your harassers is in some way consenting to or legitimising the harassment.

I think that’s very troubling, to the point of being disturbing. The implication is that if you’re being bullied, any attempt to defend yourself against those bullies means you’re no longer a victim of bullying - worst still, you are not a victim at all, worthy of sympathy and support, but are actually culpable for the bullying in some way. Your only option as a victim of harassment would be to vacate the arena of bullying - whether that be a social media platform or a playground.

If we apply that same logic, then, to the PCU, then the PCU are culpable for their own griefing by a) responding to the griefers, and b) occupying the same arenas they are being griefed. Simply turn warmode off, and stop pvp’ing. If you’re being harassed in Cathedral Square, simply move your character to an instance. A PCU-approved solution to the PCU RP-griefing problem would therefore be to stop RP’ing.

This is of course ridiculous.

I would say this constitutes a lack of self-awareness on Stonetower’s part, who I think would certainly claim the right to protest against OOC griefing of RP events. In the same thread, I posted the following prohibitions from the forum code of conduct - posters may not:

• “Insultingly refer to other characters, players, Blizzard employees, or groups of people”
• Result in ongoing harassment to other characters, players, Blizzard employees, or groups of people
• Causing disturbances in forum threads, such as picking fights, making off topic posts that ruin the thread, insulting other posters
• Creating posts or threads to discuss disciplinary actions taken against a player, including chat logs and email correspondence between a player and a Game Master (GM)

All of these things were occurring in that thread, and indeed, several of these things are occurring in this thread. Rabies was being harassed, and at least one poster apologised for intimidating, threatening, and bullying him, though many others could have done so as well.

Now, I see the ToS and the CoC held up as a gospel of truth and virtue, a code of unimpeachable moral law, whenever it is cited in cases of ERP or OOC griefing - as it should be. Why then, when it comes to forum conduct, are Blizzard’s rules and regulations considered mere advisory guidelines? The answer can only be that in the case of some players, it’s considered “justifiable” - the targets deserve some sort of punishment, and it’s seen as a necessary evil to prosecute a crime that Blizzard is refusing to, in the case of ERP for example because of the risk to minors.

But by Stonetower’s own acknowledgement, none of the above was true in the case of Rabies. He became the victim of what I called earlier a fabricated narrative of moral outrage - the manufacturing of a “good” target (i.e, one that deserves, and thus justifies, insulting and harassing) for people to torment for their amusement. This is done with alarming regularity, but more importantly, this was done knowingly and deliberately in the case of Rabies. As Stonetower himself said:

Honestly there are a lot of names like Rabies’s in the world, many of which owned by friends of mine - even Stonetower could fall amiss to a certain interpretation of the naming policy - so I would be a hypocrite to go too hard on it. It is, however, really funny to watch Rábíés mald publically

To his credit, Stonetower wasn’t leading the abuse of Rabies, and I don’t think even contributed to it. But every PCU member that participated in the harassment in that thread was acutely aware of their own hypocrisy, because, as Moody says -

I want to bring attention to the fact that word-names were all the craze in the RP community a few years back, particularly in Rotgarde.
I remember Dark , Pestilence , Bones , Thrashin , Bury to name a few, so I’m not sure (short of the accent, which is unfortunately a necessary evil in these name hoarding days) what’s wrong with using Rabies …

There were no moral or legal grounds to protest his name, it was a self-admitted form of bullying and harassment to constantly announce reports and any discussions with Blizzard, and furthermore, the thread was littered with insults and demeaning comments directed towards him, as this thread is here.

Let’s be clear then. Somebody - probably a minor - was made to feel distressed, anxious and upset, for the entertainment of a number of posters, for no other reason than schadenfreude - pleasure in their suffering. They had not breached any of the rules or principles which the harassers themselves actually demonstrated.

It’s difficult to argue, in this case, a “lack of self-awareness”, because the act was done cynically and maliciously. Yet in this thread I see people protesting the PCU’s persecution -

@Arano-argent-dawn

We’re group of people who constantly get shat on

while PCU posters do most of the actual shatting (Brigante excepted).

I imagine once upon a time that the PCU had a plethora of “good” targets - people whose harassment could perhaps by justified on the basis of wrong-doing. From what I’ve seen, Perroy “punches back”, to quote Asmongold, rather than punching down - responds to conflict and attacks, but doesn’t instigates them.

But I can’t help but feel, seeing how quickly new members of the PCU take to the lingo, and begin echoing the buzzwords, that people are being attracted to the PCU not because of the quality of the RP they provide, but because they want to shoot from Perroy’s shadow - they just like doing the punching. The PCU provides the cover, and the majority, for them to harass, bully, troll and grief the forums, because now, Argent Dawn in its entirety is a “good target”. People who disagree with the PCU consensus are a convenient punching bag, quickly slandered and then condemned in a kangaroo court of public opinion. In the case of Rabies, people who seem to be nothing other than easy targets are subjected to the same treatment, purely for the sake of sport.

I don’t actually feel like this is something that you, Perroy, want or approve of. I could be wrong, but that’s my instinct.

What I’d say is, if pasta-sauce man, and the community that sheltered and defended him, are all tarred by the same Dolmio-dipped brush, and the leader especially is considered culpable for both his crimes and all the griefing and negativity that followed, are you not accountable for the behaviour of your community on the forums?

If there’s a hard rule against griefing RP in game, as is the case with Stormbinder - on penalty of removal - why is there not a similar rule for the forums? I can’t imagine you approve of what happened with Rabies. I can’t imagine you approve of the CoC being broken repeatedly by PCU members for what was legitimately a bad target. I can’t imagine, being subject to harassment yourself, you approve of innocents getting bullied and harassed on the forums. But if you don’t approve of it, should you not disapprove of it?

I’d never say that you were responsible for what happened with Rabies - the actions of your imitators are theirs alone. But I feel like you could have stopped the entire Rabies thread with a single post. You’ve got that power. You have the means to use it. Do you not think there’s an obligation to use that power to ensure your community upholds the CoC and the ToS?

Much like Vaxir, who bewailed her own doxxing while approving of everybody else’s, isn’t the bare minimum you need to do to justify any protest of PCU-directed wrong-doing - and to be able to claim self-awareness - to stop any bullying and harassment perpetrated by the members of your community?

People can find the thread (now locked) by tagging the following on at the end of “com” in their browser window.
en/wow/t/i-decide-what-my-name-is-not-you/126352/597

[Gobbert-argent-dawn (Gobbert)]

The red hatted devil goblin flashes an attractive smile

[Ercia-argent-dawn (Ercia)]

@Megnarosh-argent-dawn

While it was called the Horde shield it 100% was. But when they reformed into shattered shield it later on became “lets show we can make RP despite the PCU!!!” so… PCU was still a main drive for community. Kind of like AaW was made for “lets make RP-PvP without the PCU!”

You know what’s frustrating about this. It was an idea I initially presented in hopes that it’d be used to create more roleplay between one another. It got denied and shut down, but then about a week later when someone else brought the idea up suddenly everyone was on board and started approaching other guilds. I didn’t think much of it at the begining, ‘fair enough, they might not have gone with it when I presented it but at least it’s happening now and maybe we can some enjoyable campaigns/interactions as a whole.’

It all just blew up can’t remember over what particularly but I do know there was a disagreement between guild leaders/officers and someone pushed the shut down button (that’s when it later became shatter shield?). I did offer to take lead of it, hoping to push towards the RP side to things but I got denied again and well yeah shut down happened.

Still to this day, I’d very much have loved to persue the book idea I had and make it ongoing thing for everyone. I don’t know if anyone remembers that, but I really thought it’d have been fun. Just some magical library with all of its belongings just going amuck around Azeroth and enchanted with different capabilities up for grabs by anyone. It’s a shame.

Probably for the best though.

[Arano-argent-dawn]

Räbies, the people’s martyr.

[Umay-argent-dawn]

Sarcasm? So he’s not a martyr, because he’s not a victim… because he deserved bullying?

[Perroy-argent-dawn (Perroy)]

@Umay-argent-dawn

I would say this constitutes a lack of self-awareness on Stonetower’s part, who I think would certainly claim the right to protest against OOC griefing of RP events. In the same thread, I posted the following prohibitions from the forum code of conduct - posters may not:

Yeah Stonetower has very low self awareness but after many years of being his friend I’m basically used to it

I don’t care about the name “Rabies” - but I also don’t care if people don’t like it and post about it. The kind of responses that were being posted in that thread - now sadly deleted - were so frantic and weird that I think it became a guilty pleasure for people to reply

However, I think it’s insincere and completely unrealistic to call some guys saying “your name is bad + can be reported” with harrassment. In this setting, Blizzard defines what that means - and there is a very common trend of people (like you here now) redefining it to mean essentially “being unpleasant”

Being unpleasant on the forums is not forbidden in the PCU. It might get them similarly unpleasant responses, but that’s life

I think most of this first paragraph is basically absolute bag + a major stretch - for example equating posting about some name being bad to sustained griefing - which for the record doesn’t take place as PVP very often at all and usually takes the form of toy spamming / anonymous funny guy alts / angry pms (ie. something you can’t turn war mode off for + does consitute disruption / griefing by Blizzard’s rules in at least some cases unlike saying “x name bad”

@Umay-argent-dawn

Now, I see the ToS and the CoC held up as a gospel of truth and virtue, a code of unimpeachable moral law, whenever it is cited in cases of ERP or OOC griefing - as it should be. Why then, when it comes to forum conduct, are Blizzard’s rules and regulations considered mere advisory guidelines?

Because these forums are largely unmoderated so people do what they want half the time. There is barely any consequence so we enter a tit-for-tat argument every time because that’s absolutely the easiest way to mug someone off on the modern forums

“muh ToS” isn’t actually why ERP is bad, for the record - it’s like one of a hundred things you could name and isn’t even in the top five. It’s just an easy thing to cite that isn’t based on a player’s opinions alone

@Umay-argent-dawn

To his credit, Stonetower wasn’t leading the abuse of Rabies, and I don’t think even contributed to it. But every PCU member that participated in the harassment in that thread was acutely aware of their own hypocrisy, because, as Moody says -

Three of the names you’ve cited are nothing to do with the PCU. One is a player’s OOC discord handle (Bones) which is not governed in any sense by the RP ToS

The last one is the character’s second name, Christopher Bury (https://www.surnamedb.com/Surname/Bury)

Basically an intensely poor example - though I will again say that I’m not invested very much in people’s OOC names unless they’re specifically bad (in fact, I’m rather fond of them if you can fit them with a title and make some cool phrase like my own “Grenadier of the Iron Vanguard” … I guess if the players you’ve mentioned there were extremely anti-Rabies, you could pull on their noses for having double standards but I assume that wasn’t the case at all so you’re kind of invoking random people to make some non-point

@Umay-argent-dawn

It’s difficult to argue, in this case, a “lack of self-awareness”, because the act was done cynically and maliciously. Yet in this thread I see people protesting the PCU’s persecution -

Yeah generally if someone begins to reply to some complaint in the way that the OP did, people will begin to reply in kind. It is a reimagining of history to say that it was some PCU-only thing or even something to do with us as a community - I don’t actually give people orders re. what they have to type (usually)

@Umay-argent-dawn

while PCU posters do most of the actual shatting (Brigante excepted).

Perhaps you think that because if you tallied up “active” (ie. one post a day) forum posters you would find that the PCU is approaching or has reached a majority

@Umay-argent-dawn

I don’t actually feel like this is something that you, Perroy, want or approve of. I could be wrong, but that’s my instinct.

Nah I approve of it 100% and your instinct is wrong

Big up the PCU forum big dogs

@Umay-argent-dawn

What I’d say is, if pasta-sauce man, and the community that sheltered and defended him, are all tarred by the same Dolmio-dipped brush, and the leader especially is considered culpable for both his crimes and all the griefing and negativity that followed, are you not accountable for the behaviour of your community on the forums?

I am absolutely culpable for them, yes - until they leave or I remove them. I may not agree with their opinion w/r Rabies but I am the one that decides if they’re with me or not at the end of the day

@Umay-argent-dawn

If there’s a hard rule against griefing RP in game, as is the case with Stormbinder - on penalty of removal - why is there not a similar rule for the forums?

I make the rules and have decided that I don’t mind people being rude on the forums. They have very little impact on the in-game RP (in a way that griefing, ERP etc does) so it doesn’t bother me

I don’t really agree that calling someone’s name loads is the same as sending players to infiltrate rival guilds / doing pasta RP / sending alts to disrupt events, but that’s just my opinion

@Umay-argent-dawn

I’d never say that you were responsible for what happened with Rabies - the actions of your imitators are theirs alone.

I claim all responsibility. While they are my PCU brothers and sisters, I’m with them ride or die either be 100% wit me or stay 100 yards away from me

https://i.gyazo.com/b1fc638e5206cb4797ec47ed3994e0a3.png

@Umay-argent-dawn

But I feel like you could have stopped the entire Rabies thread with a single post. You’ve got that power. You have the means to use it.

Yeah but I didn’t because I don’t want to

@Umay-argent-dawn

to stop any bullying and harassment perpetrated by the members of your community?

Saying someone’s name is bad + that you could report it (both fundamentally true) isn’t actually harrassment. It’s super easy to call things that you don’t like toxic / harrasment / " bullism ?" but I think it’s generally the last resort of someone with no point left to make beyond “that’s … bad” - I can claim your post is toxic / harrassment and it would have the exact same weight (or more, if you are to be believed, since several people would instantly back me up and agree)

[Zarental-argent-dawn (Zarental)]

I can’t wait to see how the PCU becomes the monopoly on AD for roleplay, mainly just to witness the frantic screeching from certain forum titans

[Perroy-argent-dawn (Perroy)]

@Zarental-argent-dawn

I can’t wait to see how the PCU becomes the monopoly on AD for roleplay, mainly just to witness the frantic screeching from certain forum titans

Almost 40 Alliance side players online tonight while maintaining the same Horde presence … a quick but evil expansion

[Vixí-argent-dawn (Vixí)]

Worth remembering as well about that thread is that the OP for it was the one who escalated it all. It was some other thing initially, then 2-3 people said they didnt think his name was fitting and he changed the title & proclaimed what a superiour human speciment of intellect he was for thinking up such a creative, witty, name and blasting everyone who disagreed.

[Blithere-argent-dawn (Blithere)]

Nowhere left to hide… no more dark masters to serve… what have you done ad…

[Umay-argent-dawn]

@Perroy-argent-dawn

The kind of responses that were being posted in that thread - now sadly deleted

But still viewable.

@Perroy-argent-dawn

I think it became a guilty pleasure for people to reply

Guilty is the right word.

@Perroy-argent-dawn

However, I think it’s insincere and completely unrealistic to call some guys saying “your name is bad + can be reported” with harrassment

They didn’t say it was bad and could be reported, they said it was bad and it was also being reported.

Vixi:

Feel free too, but you should know that: They don’t respond to tickets relating to forums. To report people, use the report flag. That is actually a threat against another player and falls under harrasment/breaking the CoC for the forums. and of course 3, you are nowhere near as intimidating as you might think slight_smile so I will keep calling out your bs

Also Vixi

But I did wrong in openly stating my intents to report you Räbies, and I do apologise for it & for it causing you stress with it. I do not regret doing said report though as I believed, and still believe it to be a violation, but I should not have used it as a scare tactic. I just won’t announce if I do further or not at all.

Also Blizzard:

• Creating posts or threads to discuss disciplinary actions taken against a player, including chat logs and email correspondence between a player and a Game Master (GM)
• Creating posts or threads to discuss disciplinary actions taken against a character or account on the forums

@Perroy-argent-dawn

Being unpleasant on the forums is not forbidden in the PCU. It might get them similarly unpleasant responses, but that’s life

Good to know!

@Perroy-argent-dawn

Because these forums are largely unmoderated so people do what they want half the time.

So that makes breaches of the CoC okay. Good to know!

@Perroy-argent-dawn

“muh ToS” isn’t actually why ERP is bad, for the record - it’s like one of a hundred things you could name and isn’t even in the top five. It’s just an easy thing to cite that isn’t based on a player’s opinions alone

Completely agree. ToS is also not in the top 5 reasons bullying and harassing people on the forums is bad - but it’s still one of them.

@Perroy-argent-dawn

Three of the names you’ve cited are nothing to do with the PCU.

Anymore? Is the Rotgarde not the PCU?

@Perroy-argent-dawn

people will begin to reply in kind

They don’t reply “in kind”, they instigate.

@Perroy-argent-dawn

Perhaps you think that because if you tallied up “active” (ie. one post a day) forum posters you would find that the PCU is approaching or has reached a majority

Relevant how? It’s ok for PCU posters to demean and insult others because there’s more of you? HOT take.

@Perroy-argent-dawn

Nah I approve of it 100% and your instinct is wrong

Big up the PCU forum big dogs

Good to have it in writing!

@Perroy-argent-dawn

I make the rules and have decided that I don’t mind people being rude on the forums. They have very little impact on the in-game RP (in a way that griefing, ERP etc does) so it doesn’t bother me

What about the impact of the people on the forums? Are your rules based on practicalities or on morals?

@Perroy-argent-dawn

Yeah but I didn’t because I don’t want to

A brave stand

@Perroy-argent-dawn

Saying someone’s name is bad + that you could report it (both fundamentally true) isn’t actually harrassment. It’s super easy to call things that you don’t like toxic / harrasment / " bullism ?" but I think it’s generally the last resort of someone with no point left to make beyond “that’s … bad” -

“harassment - aggressive pressure or intimidation” - both self-admitted by Vixi. As previously said - they didn’t announce that they could, they announced they would and were. And I’m pretty sure insulting and demeaning people is in everybody’s definition of toxicity.

@Perroy-argent-dawn

I can claim your post is toxic / harrassment

Point to the bits that are toxic and/or harassment then. Point to aggression. Point to targeted insults.

@Perroy-argent-dawn

I can claim your post is toxic / harrassment and it would have the exact same weight

It wouldn’t unless you could demonstrate it.

[Elyrius-argent-dawn]

@Vixí-argent-dawn

Worth remembering as well about that thread is that the OP for it was the one who escalated it all. It was some other thing initially, then 2-3 people said they didnt think his name was fitting and he changed the title & proclaimed what a superiour human speciment of intellect he was for thinking up such a creative, witty, name and blasting everyone who disagreed.

Absolutely correct

Regardless of what your opinion on the player’s name was (I made mine very obvious), the escalation from a normal thread with a few people that held the belief their name wasn’t suitable to an outright circus was entirely the doing of Rabies. I think it was an odd take for the certain female orc mentioning this to conveniently gloss over it entirely

[Umay-argent-dawn]

Yeah but no. Even when he said he’d write a TRP to justify the name for all the people criticising it, here’s your polite and reasonable response.

I can safely say I’m not looking forward to your psuedo-RP story that has no real roleplay purpose beyond just being a stupid clapback at the people telling you to adhere to the rules of a roleplaying server (and justifiably so)

And yeah, as Jessicka says, your battle.net name is very much irrelevant to the in-game name of your character. All you’re doing is being wilfully ignorant of the rules your breaking because you don’t quite care, though given that’s the case you:

A) Shouldn’t be on the realm
B) Will no doubt be very upset when your name is eventually flagged for change (and you won’t be able to make it a reiteration of Rabies, because if you read the information Tehya linked you earlier, repeat offenders suffer a harsher penalty to their account)

Keep on rocking the name though, at least you’re not afraid to flaunt your deliberate ignorance

Escalation was in the hands of his accusers, not in Rabies, who replied courteously, respectfully, and in accommodating fashion

[Vilem-argent-dawn (Vilem)]

Vixi isn’t even in the PCU.

You’re clutching at paper straws mate.

[Vixí-argent-dawn (Vixí)]

@Umay-argent-dawn

who replied courteously, respectfully, and in accommodating fashion

Nothing of his meltdown was any of those things. It was a mix of “Shut up im right, you should all be banned/are wrong” or “I am smarter than all of you for thinking up this name :))))))))”

[Umay-argent-dawn]

But was supported by and joined in her harassment by PCU members. If it was harassment when Vixi did it, it was definitely harassment when the PCU also did it.

[Vilem-argent-dawn (Vilem)]

I don’t think that word means what you think it means, I think you should maybe re-check what wikipedia says and cite other sources before you submit your essays.

I’m also going to have to start checking your submissions with TurnItIn because I have suspicions that they are largely plagiaristic.