2100+ is definitely harder than either heroic raiding or mythic + 10
I think the rewardds should be improved throughout the ladder. Increase by +5 item levels, on both weekly rewards and random game rewards, capping at 2100, afterwhich at 2400 you are guaranteed a 415+ piece at the end of the week, but also have a chance to get a 415+ gear at the end of each mach.
So to put it in perspective 1800 players would be getting 400 item level gear from random wins (On part with HC raiding), and a guaranteed 410 at the end of the week (On par with average warforges/titanforges from mythic+). 2100 players would be getting a chance to get 405 + gear at the rating after each game, and a guaranteed 415 item at the end of the week.
Yeah a +5 ilvl increase seems reasonable.
And sure, a chance for a 400 drop after each game at 1800 would be totally awesome. I would be playing arena all day long if that was the case.
But I think it would be too much, unless the drop chance is lowered by quite a bit.
Because if you raid for example, there are a set number of bosses that you can loot each week. However, you can play as many arena games as you want every week. Potentially making it possible for arena players to get a full set of 400 gear in like a day, meanwhile raiders could grind for 2 months before filling every slot.
Problem should be obvious: I WANT TO PLAY PVP; NOT PVE.
This comparision makes no sense. The chance of getting loot from an arena is maybe 5% or 10%. The chance of getting loot from a M+ is well over 50%, with the possibility of actually getting several items in a single run. It requires more time to get items though arena than though m+.
The thing is… currently, though pve, you can get almost the best gear with almost no effort. 400 from warfront and worldbosses, 410 from a single mythic, a 415 azerite piece every 3 weeks…
Getting gear though pve is hundreds of times easier than though pvp.
Because conquest rewards have been maxed at 385 ilvl (will improve to 400). You could have gotten a similar weapon from an emissary quest. Not really competitive when compared to raid or m+ stuff.
You are simply wrong: i (an extremely average player both in pve and pvp) have been able to get a 405 ilvl though pve. Playing 1 hour a week ensures me a 410 item and 173 of a 415 azerite gear, plus 400 items from the dungeon rewards.
Though pvp, i can get 380 gear from the arenas, 385 gear from the conquest caps, and 395 from the weekly rewards. Getting pvp gear is much more difficult.
First, the drop chance is already very low. A full afternoon of arenas wouldn’t grant you more than a couple items. Again, doing m+ would be more productive.
Second, getting to 1800 takes time, and with suboptimal gear is quite difficult.
Third, because the raider can still do an unlimited amnount of M+. Getting 400 gear through pve would still be faster than getting it though pvp.
And this is an artificial discussion, because there is a different option: give us freaking pvp vendors!: in TBC, you would get two different kinds of “currency”: battleground points, which you could get an unlimited amount of, were used to get blue gear.
Then, you would get arena points: you would get them only once a week, and you would get them according to your rating. For example, a 2500 player would get 500, while a 1800 would barely get 200. Thus, anyone could get the best pvp gear, but good players would get it much faster. If you liked pvp, you weren’t forced to play pve: you would get your gear a bit slower, but you would get it if you played long enough.
Nowadays, on the other hand, you are forced to play pve, because the best pvp gear is limited to the best players.
Ok let’s just say that in conclusion we disagree on some points, and agree on others. I am in no way positive about the current gearing system, not for pvp and not for pve. I just think that it’s a shame that there is a huge wedge between the communities and people are being rude and toxic toward people who play the other type of content wether it’s because they enjoy it or to get an edge in another typ of content.
I would be super happy if the pvp vendors came back, and resilience or pvp power or something like that. I was fine with getting spanked for a while in my honor gear before I managed to get the conquest gear. And with that system it was impossible for people in pve gear to crush people in pvp gear.
Because I truly enjoy both pve and pvp. And it’s super annoying that currently you can’t win an arena game without being called out for being a pve hero noob with no clue about pvp and only won that game because you had some bloody trinket from a raidboss or a mythic+ azerite piece.
most of this seems reasonable. only thing is that getting 415 stuff for random wins seems pretty excessive and would probably never happen.
the issue with this line of thinking is that people are not robots, and i’d wager the vast majority will not play endlessly to farm gear. in practice the gear source ends up being finite anyway.
“pve players” are not a single group. telling raiders to spam mythic+ for gear is like telling arena players to spam battlegrounds. there’s overlap, some raiders do a great deal of mythic+ and enjoy it, but a lot of us don’t like it all that much and don’t want to. for me, a weekly +10 is a chore that i do for the reward only.
it’s like if you had to win one battleground per week to finish your cap in pvp. most of the arena playerbase would probably do it, but a large chunk of people would probably rather not and only do it because they “have to”.,
this here is an interesting point actually. once you’re at 2100 you’re basically at the top of the mountain. there’s a little bit more to get if you climb to 2400, but for the most part you’re there.
in pve, there is a similar point where you’re so close to the top that you may as well be there, and it’s heroic raiding with a few +10 keys. the difference between someone who does mythic progress and/or high keys and someone who clears heroic and gets their weekly +10 done is pretty small. you get your 415 azerite from the m+ vendor and the rest of the slots fill up with a combination of weekly m+ gear, some warforges here, some titanforges there.
the end result is that you end up within like 5 ilvls of people who put in way more effort and do much more difficult pve content. the difference compared to pvp here is that this “basically at the top” point comes at a considerably lower difficulty level comparatively. heroic is not hard, and neither is slowly making your way through a +10 and barely making the time.
it’s nothing new. both communities often look down on each other. you and i have a fairly interesting perspective in that sense given that we both enjoy both of them and get to look at the game from both “sides”.
The drop chance is so small at the moment that it’d seem entirely fair to me. If you want to play 100+ games at 2400+ rating to get a shot at 2-3 items then you should be entitled to get those rewards.
It is already incredibly low chance. You can go 30+ games without a single drop. If you clock that at an average length of an arena game anywhere from 2-5 minutes, that’s potentially 1-3 hours of play time to get that gear- Something you’d realistically spend in mythic + as well, if you farm several of them.
Time really isn’t an issue. If you can get rewards before others, but they can still get the same results as you, if slower, that is a good system. Everybody can decide the pace they want to get their gear at.
The RNG in pvp makes it so that you can’t even target specific items you want unlike you can in Mythic+ or Raids. In PVP you can’t, therefore it is justifiable that if you put more time into it you should get more chances to get good loot.
But again, it’s not an ideal system. Some (esp. hardcore PVE players) will feel forced to farm arena for gear if it is brought on part with PVE gearing, which is not a good thing, but hey if PVP players have been forced to gear with PVE, it doesn’t seem unfair for me to flip the system around for a while?
The only permanent fix is to separate pvp gearing from PVE, the way WoD/MoP/ any other system prior to that did.
It’s not optimal system but it clears so many problems this current one brings up that it’s the lesser evil in any of the cases.
i seem to get around 2 items from a queue session, which i’d say is typically about 30 games. last time we played i remember i got a dagger and a badge, for example. i don’t agree that it’s 2-3 items per 100 games, that hasn’t been my experience.
the complete lack of control over what you get in pvp is a pretty big problem. it could be anything, both in terms of slots and stats/effects. as a player you have effectively zero control over what’s going on, all you can do is keep playing and hope for the best.
if i want a haste vers ring, i not only have to get lucky enough to receive a ring, i also need to highroll the stats. i could just as well get a crit mastery ring, or why not vers mastery shoes.
it’s difficult to imagine how this could be solved (without doing the obvious thing and just making vendors). you can’t really take a pve route and do something like having different arenas drop different items, because you still have no control over what arena you join, and if you did that would have pretty serious competitive implications.
this isn’t really a thing on either side, it’s always about grabbing the easy rewards and leaving it at that. even with all this commotion about pve gear in pvp, how many pvpers are you seeing doing anything other than dabbling in the low effort, high reward sources such as a weekly +10 or two and maybe some heroic raiding?
it’s the same on the other side of the fence. some people in my guild are doing some arenas for the gear, but it’s never oh time to push 2.4k for huge gear because i’m “forced” to. most raiders who aren’t into pvp don’t do any, and the ones that do seem to push 1800 or 2100 in 2s and do a weekly cap.
the time and effort you need to put in for the top-end gear rewards is simply too much if it’s not something you’re interested in anyway. just like you’re not going to find any arena players who only want gear in mythic raiding guilds, you’re not going to find raiders pushing high rating.
Personally I feel like the base item level for the weekly reward/chest should be higher at the start of the season and instead of having 4 or 5 different brackets that increase item level just have one. For the last 9 weeks you could get gear from doing an emissary that had the same item level as the gear you get from capping for the week.
Put the weekly rewards at the same level as heroic raiding/mythic 10 content and remove the chance of gear at the end of games (keep the bonus rolls). Anything over 2k rating gets mythic raiding ilvl gear. That should solve the disparity between the majority of casual pvp players and those who smash out mythic+ every day.
Let’s take a RL example: a surgeon can do a job of nurse, it will be easy for him, but he is right to expect the appropriate reward for performing surgeries nonetheless.
You can also get a rush to M+ the moment you ding 120. Which does not make it normal.
But again, I am not arguing in favour of lowering the rating requirements for gear. I am arguing in favour of pvp vendors. Add other ways of getting gear if you want (RNG, conquest, chest, etc.) but let us play the game we want to play (pvp) instead of forcing us into pve.
I don’t know a lot of people from my friends who like either of these activities- But they do them regardless, simply because of how easy & lucrative they are. I used to do them too but now I refuse because fundamentally I hate PVE content and I don’t want to do it to get gear for PVP, even if it means I gut my own progression (which sucks).
I as a PVP player should be able to get the exact same results in terms of gearing as the person who likes to do both pvp and pvp, or just pve. Thats the argument I am making.
The fundamental idea is this: Blizzard has made Item level into everything that matters as your character progression in this game. Now that is not necessarily a completely bad thing, but it -is- a bad thing when you equalize the gear across all the activities in the game, but make some forms of gearing more rewarding than others.
Since progression is at the core of an MMO and growing your character, obviously it matters to people. But if a system they like to use to progress their characters isn’t viable (even if they prefer it to the others), what do you think most of them will do?
Of course they will take the path of least resistance: Regardless of whether it is the Mythic+, Raiding, or PVP.
And that’s the problem summarized, essentially. Instead of equalizing the progression systems (like they were in the past: PVE progression was equalized with raiding, PVP was with PVP, but both gave the same outcome at the high-end, save for anomalies like legendaries and some trinkets), Blizzard has equalized gear: Which causes people to play content they not like, and as a result they grow spiteful and resentful, like I have.
You can’t equalize loot across Mythic+, Raiding and PVP because they all have so drastically different loot systems. It’s impossible. One of them WILL be more rewarding than others. Currently it’s Mythic+, with raiding as close 2nd and PVP at the very bottom of the barrel.
But if they did the changes proposed, it might make it so that now raiders will feel that their “path of least resistance” is to pug themselves to 1800, even if they loathe rated pvp. That’s not good either.
So again, I argue: Separation of PVP and PVE activities is the -only- way forward.
This.
You’d gear up roughly at the same pace as your average raider- A bit faster if you had more rating (to reflect that if you did more raiding, you also got more gear, which is fair).
Thats the exact point i was trying to make. But ive got called names, my point was called garbage and someone get so offended by my opinion that ive got even suspended on forums for a day. Which is a sentence that is going to get me silenced again…