I'm not sure why anybody takes this element of the lore seriously anymore. For me, basically everything involving people getting raised is a write off. I just ignore it.
I don't know if Blizzard are actually building towards a reveal where it's finally admitted to that free will does not exist once people are raised, but until they confirm this is the case, I just don't take any of this nonsense at face value.
This lore is literally on a par with Cataclysm Garrosh in Stonetalon and the Southern Barrens versus the character he was everywhere else, including Mists. Blizzard themselves even admitted that they didn't know what they were doing with that. This is no different, so I don't know why we're giving them the benefit of the doubt in regards to them knowing what they're doing here.
Can't wait until this expansion is over.
It may well be canon that free will is an absolute despite all evidence to the contrary and they instead play up the despair of undeath.
In turning Summermoon, Sylvanas has created a clone of herself; a being wholly shattered by witnessing the death of her home and its people. The warchief's declaration that life is pain and hope fails rings true enough as Delaryn's tormented soul reenters her corpse.
It's just that it's that particular bottom rung writing of "You were right, I will serve!" despite everything rather than an actually compelling narrative of a true dark reflection of Sylvanas' broken self with Delaryn actually rebelling against her as Sylvanas has effectively become Arthas.
I also feel inclined to demand an answer as to where this new notion of the damnation of undeath actually being liberation comes from. We now have several separate instances of undead characters expressing the notion. What could be so compelling that you regard life a turbulent chaos filled with lies and undeath as liberating?
Oh. Right.
https://www.wowhead.com/object=191664/the-decree-of-the-scourge
In turning Summermoon, Sylvanas has created a clone of herself; a being wholly shattered by witnessing the death of her home and its people. The warchief's declaration that life is pain and hope fails rings true enough as Delaryn's tormented soul reenters her corpse.
It's just that it's that particular bottom rung writing of "You were right, I will serve!" despite everything rather than an actually compelling narrative of a true dark reflection of Sylvanas' broken self with Delaryn actually rebelling against her as Sylvanas has effectively become Arthas.
I also feel inclined to demand an answer as to where this new notion of the damnation of undeath actually being liberation comes from. We now have several separate instances of undead characters expressing the notion. What could be so compelling that you regard life a turbulent chaos filled with lies and undeath as liberating?
Oh. Right.
https://www.wowhead.com/object=191664/the-decree-of-the-scourge
A part of me still hopes, desperately, that they'll do exactly that. I -COULD- let Dark Warden Sira slide with the whole 'she went insane' idea, maybe. But Delaryn has more to hate Sylvanas for than almost anyone else out there.29/09/2018 16:09Posted by MarinyaIt's just that it's that particular bottom rung writing of "You were right, I will serve!" despite everything rather than an actually compelling narrative of a true dark reflection of Sylvanas' broken self with Delaryn actually rebelling against her as Sylvanas has effectively become Arthas.
One Truth in Undeath:
An unpleasantly familiar bit of rethoric, isn't it?
Behold the finest of ironies. The living ascribe unto undeath all the most sickly attributes of their own lives--hopeless servitude, savagery, stillness of the spirit. We serve! The living serve, too, though they serve kings, warlords, druids, priests, gods, men, and beasts. We serve only the mighty, unifying will of the Lich King, which compels us unto prosperity and unity!
For all the endeavours of men, there exist only endless records of tragedy, cruelty, betrayal, and selfishness. For the Scourge, there is only efficiency and totality. Serve the Lich King in life, or serve him in death. His is a way of choice whose roads lead only to fulfillment!
Cold in flesh, but warmed by unity, the mighty Scourge are one nation, one mind, one being. True cold dwells in the heartless gaze of the guards who turn away sickly refugees from their neighboring country in a time of war! Are not all men of one kind? Nay, divided in their icy hearts.
Raise high our ideals, and bring low our foes! Fold their broken into our number until all serve the Frozen Throne!
An unpleasantly familiar bit of rethoric, isn't it?
29/09/2018 16:41Posted by MarinyaAn unpleasantly familiar bit of rethoric, isn't it?
Ahhh....it has been nearly 3 years since I came across that book. Didn't mean much at the time. Means too much now, even without factoring in BfA into the equation.
Myself, Ikaallu and Elyssa, would take our chances joining parts of the (fractured?) Legion than accept that however. The Scourge has no heart, people -can- still have a heart even if they do appalling stuff everyday to those around them until it becomes a constant that is numbing.
29/09/2018 16:09Posted by MarinyaIt may well be canon that free will is an absolute despite all evidence to the contrary and they instead play up the despair of undeath.
You're being too kind.
At best, the process of raising someone completely corrupts their soul and thought pattern to the degree they simply "become" a complete and utter bollocks. At worst, the writers think that getting killed is enough to make about 95% of people, if resurrected, turn on everything they ever knew and loved because they're disappointed they were killed, to the degree they join up with their killer and become the thing they hate, killing old friends with murderous glee.
Either way, they're both quite frankly ludicrous notions, and Blizzard have confirmed neither.
Free will, as in the truest meaning of the term, clearly does not exist in the majority of these cases, and when it actually does seem to manifest itself, those Undead are considered "the bad guys" compared to Sylvanas' Cult.
It's bewildering how these people actually write lore for a living.
29/09/2018 16:32Posted by ElyssarainA part of me still hopes, desperately, that they'll do exactly that. I -COULD- let Dark Warden Sira slide with the whole 'she went insane' idea, maybe.
That's not good enough anymore, not unless they state it's a specific kind of insanity induced by the raising process, which inexplicably causes someone to serve whatever the closest Undead "leader" entity is, because that's literally what happens.
The same goes for the Ebon Blade, by the way. Stuff like raising Thoras as a Death Knight, and then he suddenly wants to blight the Arathi Highlands? Haha, yeah, okay.
Well, it is canon that being raised accentuates the negatives and makes hatred easier than happiness. It is literally the case that it's a deliberately botched resurrection, imperfectly attaching soul to body via shadow/void energy. You know, the same stuff that can manifest the mere concept of despair as a fanged elemental eager to pull the joy out of your body until you're a corpse puppet.
As such, the part about undeath turning a person into a
As such, the part about undeath turning a person into a
complete and utter bollocks.doesn't seem all that far off. If you're already bad or die in a particularly traumatic moment you may well wake up a complete monster. You free will, for what it is, then extends to blighting your beloved homeland, wanting the neighbour lady murdered along with her whole family for being prettier and hiring assassins whilst openly pondering your own psychopathy. All examples existing ingame.
The same goes for the Ebon Blade, by the way. Stuff like raising Thoras as a Death Knight, and then he suddenly wants to blight the Arathi Highlands? Haha, yeah, okay.
Can you give a source for the blighting part? I know he gets raised and all, but don't remember any details about blighting Arathi.
29/09/2018 21:36Posted by MarinyaWell, it is canon that being raised accentuates the negatives and makes hatred easier than happiness.
Well, duh. I'm pretty sure that'd be the same in real life. I mean, if I was killed, my body and soul violated to the degree I'm forced to shamble around with necrosis all day long, I'd be kinda upset as well, but I don't think I would, for example, work for the person who killed me, and did it to me, unless I didn't have free will.
29/09/2018 21:36Posted by Marinyayou may well wake up a complete monster.
They don't wake up "complete monsters", they wake up as pawns of Sylvanas and act as if they're brainwashed. Being a monster doesn't even come into it.
I'm afraid there's no way you can put this where the term "free will" being used still makes the vast majority of instant "person raised as Undead inexplicably serves the person who killed them against those who s/he was family of when living" believable. Like one or two, or a couple, okay, but basically all of them?
You and I both know this isn't what Blizzard intend, which is why I'm suggesting you're being very generous by indicating it isn't just nonsense to the maximum degree.
30/09/2018 01:12Posted by VardamìrThe same goes for the Ebon Blade, by the way. Stuff like raising Thoras as a Death Knight, and then he suddenly wants to blight the Arathi Highlands? Haha, yeah, okay.
Can you give a source for the blighting part? I know he gets raised and all, but don't remember any details about blighting Arathi.
It's some quest text where he wants you to get rid of the Witherbark around, and he says something along the lines of "Blight them, or whatever it is you Death Knights do."
Then he rides off to the Ebon Hold and apparently the Alliance and Horde fight over Stromgarde for ages to come while he does Death Knight things, since we haven't seen him in the mean time, as if Thoras would do that. Yay. How about we tackle the stupidity of Nazgrim and Sally Whitemane next? Infinitely more stupid and out of character of individuals we've actually seen a lot of in Warcraft ...
Anyway, I've been drinking, so here's Metal:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gE1S4vXbws
I'm only saying that the established lore about the undead condition explains why some seem like particularly terrible people. It still does nothing to justify why people raised on a battlefield immediately turn on their comrades or why Sira would be so loyal to her killers and Delaryn obedient to the person who seemingly had thousands of night elves (the majority?) burned to prove a petty point.
People at blizzard have tried to justify it as the newly raised being feral and/or suggestible but how is that not a violation of their sacred free will? Similarly, the presumed angle of Delaryn in particular giving in to despair and going "dark side" is just awful writing. The hardwired evil because good feelings are hard is just a poor excuse.
There's a clear discrepancy when it comes to what blizzard shows and what we're told.
We're told that undeath tilts you to rage, sadness, accentuates negatives.
We're told that forsaken and others are confused when raised and herded to kill friends.
We're told that several prominent undead characters arrived at the same conclusion of undeath being a blessing and freedom from morality.
We're told that free will is the most sacred thing to the forsaken after they regained their agency that was taken away by the scourge.
We're shown that people brought back to life immediately pounce on old friends and allies to murder them, screaming "for the dark lady!".
We're shown people raised into immediate loyalty despite prior ties. We've seen the allegedly confused new undead used as willing shock troops.
We're shown that even the player character is sent off as a suggestible tool to immediately murder farmers after some conditioning in Deathknell.
We're shown how several undead independently come to conclusions about life and the living that fit kel'thuzad's scourge propaganda.
We're shown that straying from absolute control gets you shot and that the warchief, the queen of the damned, believes that all will serve her horde one way or another. That she is the horde.
In short, it's on blizzard to settle whether the forsaken are a desperate band of unfortunatly undead who just want to exist in peace and have their freedom or whether they're a brainwashed cult of death under a reactionary despot who silences dissent and dreams of universal subjugation.
People at blizzard have tried to justify it as the newly raised being feral and/or suggestible but how is that not a violation of their sacred free will? Similarly, the presumed angle of Delaryn in particular giving in to despair and going "dark side" is just awful writing. The hardwired evil because good feelings are hard is just a poor excuse.
There's a clear discrepancy when it comes to what blizzard shows and what we're told.
We're told that undeath tilts you to rage, sadness, accentuates negatives.
We're told that forsaken and others are confused when raised and herded to kill friends.
We're told that several prominent undead characters arrived at the same conclusion of undeath being a blessing and freedom from morality.
We're told that free will is the most sacred thing to the forsaken after they regained their agency that was taken away by the scourge.
We're shown that people brought back to life immediately pounce on old friends and allies to murder them, screaming "for the dark lady!".
We're shown people raised into immediate loyalty despite prior ties. We've seen the allegedly confused new undead used as willing shock troops.
We're shown that even the player character is sent off as a suggestible tool to immediately murder farmers after some conditioning in Deathknell.
We're shown how several undead independently come to conclusions about life and the living that fit kel'thuzad's scourge propaganda.
We're shown that straying from absolute control gets you shot and that the warchief, the queen of the damned, believes that all will serve her horde one way or another. That she is the horde.
In short, it's on blizzard to settle whether the forsaken are a desperate band of unfortunatly undead who just want to exist in peace and have their freedom or whether they're a brainwashed cult of death under a reactionary despot who silences dissent and dreams of universal subjugation.
Ding 30. Heeeeeeeeelp :(
30/09/2018 01:31Posted by CathríonIt's some quest text where he wants you to get rid of the Witherbark around, and he says something along the lines of "Blight them, or whatever it is you Death Knights do."
Actually the one who said that was Galen Trollbane, not Thoras. But yeah, we did blight them. Though they are trolls with which the Trollbanes were against for centuries so it's not surprising that Thoras would want to exterminate the filth.
30/09/2018 08:13Posted by TethenarDing 30. Heeeeeeeeelp :(
Muahahaha, you are part of us old uns now!
On the other hand, with age comes wisdom (supposedly) so it's not all bad here in the geriatric ward!
On a more serious note: Happy birthday, Tethenar!
30/09/2018 08:13Posted by TethenarDing 30. Heeeeeeeeelp :(
Happy birthday my old friend!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZ_ZQkV58Cc
30/09/2018 08:13Posted by TethenarDing 30. Heeeeeeeeelp :(
Happy birthday!
Happy birthday! You're definitely too old to die young, now!
30/09/2018 08:13Posted by TethenarDing 30. Heeeeeeeeelp :(
Congratulations lots!
Hope you had an ossum birthday! ^^
And aaaahhh, you all seem to have really cool character threads going on. I looked away for a couple of days and now I'm having trouble responding to all of you.
Most of you seem to have laid a cool groundwork to work off of, though - Including melancholy, marriage counsel, warfront murders, secret missions and comatose wives.
It's fun to see how all of our characters are affected differently by big sweeping events. ^^
Ariyel tried to smuggle her Seneschal business out of Undercity as she, with her finger on the pulse of Horde politics, sensed terrible things would be coming along soon.
Things didn't go very well (I rolled terribly) and she was put under house arrest, and only managed to escape when the Alliance rolled in with their tanks. Now, after a few weeks at sea with a gang of makeshift sailors who she escaped with, she is trying to establish a foothold for the Seneschal Temple on Zandalar.
I try not to focus too much on the overarching plot of Warcraft, since it tends to crumble into tiny pieces once you put it under the microscope. I mostly try to think of cool, fun ways the plot might affect my characters and her friends. ^^
As long as we're having fun and the plot serves a bunch of material to keep building on, I'm fine with brushing the details under the rug.
30/09/2018 08:13Posted by TethenarDing 30. Heeeeeeeeelp :(
Congratulations on evading Bwonsamdi's grasp for yet another year.
Thirty, huh? What talent did you select? 8D