Heroic raid is a bit challenging in pugs

[Shihiroki-kirin-tor]

This is the worst last raid tier since DS.

I mean, there are near no mechanics. You just have to execute them properly.

Generally speaking, when I ran HC pug, it always went smooth and one shotting each single boss.

[Coldsháde-argent-dawn (Coldsháde)]

@Ixyion-malganis

In this gear it should be possible to do more then 35k dps even without corruptions.

It was possible in EP gear.

[Barzda-silvermoon]

@Dolva-draenor

This is way too hard for 460 ilevel loot. No, I’m not talking about the first 3 bosses. I already know people are going to pretend that it’s easy but it’s BS, this is so ridiculously hard in pug unless the whole raid outgears the content. It’s simply overtuned. I’m talking about fights like Xanesh, Vexiona, Il’gynoth, Raden. It’s insane. It’s like they tuned this content for 470 ilvl. None of this can be pugged in a raid with average 455 ilevel. If you’re going to pretend it’s easy then why is it SO much easier to pug a +11 dungeon and get the same rewards?

You can have all the ilvl/dmg you want, you still need to:

• play football
• do vexiona correctly (puddles, flying, soaking)
• kill blobs, spread and kill MC on ilgynoth
• will not even start on ra-den mechanics.

If it’s to hard for you - go back to normal. Next thing you will ask to nerf mythic, cuz doing m+15 is easier than killing mythic ra-den? But guess what - you can’t get ra-den loot in m+15

[Popgligor-kazzak]

Your problem is that you’re pugging a raid. Those are always going to be a challenge. No matter what Blizzard does, the best raid experience will always be with a raiding guild.

@Niryn-quelthalas

Everyone has to pull 70-100k dps or heroic bosses are a massive pain, and a lot of the encounters have stupid counter-carry mechanics like stopping the same person from doing the football at Xanesh. Why??

It’s a heroic raid. For Xanesh you need 3 players who know how to do the football.

@Niryn-quelthalas

much less Vexiona’s flight path.

If someone can’t see Vexi’s flight path, I’m impressed that they can play with their monitor turned off.

[Avidze-silvermoon]

If you can’t do raden, vex, shag, etc dps check in 460 gear then you are probably afk.
If you get hit by vex flying attack then you don’t deserve to kill her in that pull.

@Popgligor-kazzak

It’s a heroic raid. For Xanesh you need 3 players who know how to do the football.

you have 5 touches, it’s soloable by any non-wheelchair class.

[Thodric-anachronos]

Raid is designed for groups of people who learn to play the encounters together. Pugging Raids goes against the whole point of Raids. There’s plenty of content for getting 460 gear that can even be done solo.

[Nexintus-darksorrow (Nexintus)]

Dunno depends if you can kill before second football because you are allowed to fail one. Its doable in groups I’ve been in to kill before third and that is with a huge mix and we don’t even raid really. Maybe 485 could kill before second football

[Barzda-silvermoon]

@Niryn-quelthalas

I find the raid itself fun, but I’m starting to think that unless we manage to recruit enough for a full team (most players don’t care, they’re done, the expansion’s over), I won’t get heroic done.
It’s really, really frustrating to watch pug people die to Stygian Annihilation 6 times in a row and tell me I’m the spawn of satan for kicking them because they refuse to admit they’re doing anything wrong.
Everyone has to pull 70-100k dps or heroic bosses are a massive pain, and a lot of the encounters have stupid counter-carry mechanics like stopping the same person from doing the football at Xanesh. Why?? It’s just stopping the skilled players from helping their teammates, because everyone needs to have a fully optimized spec and perform perfectly to contribute enough, as if it was mythic. Which is just stupid. Way too many instakills as well, and mechanics where I can’t fix a mistake as healer, because one misstep means the person dies in 2 seconds.

Feels a tad stupid that heroic barely gives me any upgrades, when the highest M+ I’ve done is +9, and the highest I’m willing to do on a regular basis is a +8. The mechanics should at least be more visible, not like at Drest’agath, Il’gynoth and Hivemind. No one seems to see the beam, roly poly add spawn pods, or the way the boss faces, much less Vexiona’s flight path. When one raid has this many visually unclear mechanics that the majority clearly has massive struggles with, something’s wrong.

You don’t need 100k dps for hc. You can kill mythic bosses with 70k dps (considering single target, not cleave bosses).

[Ixyion-malganis]

And that’s the sad part even…

[Coral-aggramar]

It’s not hard when you know tactics. Heroic isn’t supposed to let you ignore all the boss mechanics.

[Darklight-sylvanas (Darklight)]

HC Nyalotha is not difficult, and isn’t even on the same level as Eternal Palace comparatively.

Your problem is that most of the bosses aren’t necessarily stat or DPS checks but are mechanic intensive fights, and as you’ve noticed… Pugs and mechanics don’t mix. You can’t avoid doing mechanics, so find a guild or a group of friends that raid regularly. You can also do less mechanics sticking to LFR.

[Liljon-ragnaros (Liljon)]

It IS easy - people just finally need to learn the fights. PvE will forever be easy - it’s memory based, not skill based. That’s not a bad thing though.

[Psjohly-argent-dawn (Psjohly)]

@Liljon-ragnaros

It IS easy - people just finally need to learn the fights. PvE will forever be easy - it’s memory based, not skill based. That’s not a bad thing though.

Like PvP. You only need to remember how to deal with specific comps and ezpz faceroll!

[Liljon-ragnaros (Liljon)]

On paper, both statements are true, right? The difference is that in PvE, you really only need how fights work, whereas in PvP, you have to adapt to how others play.

PvE is prewritten - PvP is not.

[Barry-the-shatar]

@Dolva-draenor

because this definitely is not tuned for pugs or groups

why would they have to tune heroic for pugs, raiding as a whole throughout the entire life of the game has always been focused as guild based content.

please think about what you are saying, raiding content is something that requires a group of people to communicate and work together, why would they then be trying to balance it around a group of people who from my experience barely try to communicate and most of the time even refuse to try and learn the mechanics,

[Psjohly-argent-dawn (Psjohly)]

@Liljon-ragnaros

On paper, both statements are true, right? The difference is that in PvE, you really only need how fights work, whereas in PvP, you have to adapt to how others play.

When you all the time have to adapt to different groups, and with different ways of dealing with things, pve is not really that 100% scripted. Also execution skills are important. For both PvE and PvP the statement is wrong.

[Dreamkore-silvermoon]

Most fight mechanics seem difficult to execute because Blizzard words them so eloquently.

But in reality, most mechanics boil down to:

move
soak
spread
priority damage

its just worded differently all the time and has different colors

And this far into 8.3 people outgear Nyalotha by miles so gear is not the issue

[Liljon-ragnaros (Liljon)]

It’s true that certain classes can change how some fights go down in PvE - Wrathion for example, Paladins and Warlocks make the fight significantly easier, but that doesn’t mean that it’s going to be skill based. You can just do a different strategy. The fight is pre written for you. Always was, forever will be. People just need to learn the mechanics, and optimize themselves.

If you take PvP as an example, say that it’s a DH Hpally versus DH MW, it’s easy to tell that the MWDH is going to target Hpally, and that he’s going to go in for burns, but you won’t be able to tell how the enemy will coordinate their pressure, or if are they going to be switching between targets a lot, will he play w Death from Above… etc. You need to make decisions in the middle of the battle, whereas in PvE, you already know all your decisions before the fight.

If PvP was as easy as you say it is, everyone would be at least 2400.

[Psjohly-argent-dawn (Psjohly)]

In PVE you dont know who is going to get targeted with what, or where whatever crap drops what you have to avoid or soak. If PvE was so easy as you say, then everyone was doing +30 M+ keys and had Cutting Edge.

[Liljon-ragnaros (Liljon)]

Of course it’s easy - so are +30 keys or Mythic N’zoth. It’s easy on a fundamental level. The difficulty is artifical - people not having enough gear, don’t have it optimized, or the content is overtuned. Sure, you can have some RNG with Incineration on Wrathion, but you just move out of the raid - a strategy that you know before the fight.