Homophobia in rp needs to cease

[Silverveil-argent-dawn]

I never said anything about slurs.

[Rainwatcher-argent-dawn]

@Silverveil-argent-dawn

What I didn’t understand was the moral argument that roleplaying a bigoted character is somehow ‘wrong’, while other immoral attitudes or actions are considered acceptable as long as they’re in-character.

You can rp bigoted character who are based in-universe biggotry such as hating orcs or humans or warlock of light users etc.

Homophobia is not a thing in-universe.

[Zagkush-argent-dawn]

@Silverveil-argent-dawn

What I didn’t understand was the moral argument that roleplaying a bigoted character is somehow ‘wrong’, while other immoral attitudes or actions are considered acceptable as long as they’re in-character.

If those actions exist in lore, eg (from my interactivos with opposite faction) My orc was called an Honor less savage many times. One thing that doesnt exist is homophobia, and those champion it… Well… Not sure why they insist on it.

[Garlakk-argent-dawn]

@Silverveil-argent-dawn

I understand there is an argument to be made that such subjects may or may not be against ToS, that wasn’t what I was addressing. What I didn’t understand was the moral argument that roleplaying a bigoted character is somehow ‘wrong’, while other immoral attitudes or actions are considered acceptable as long as they’re in-character.

read the thread
one of the flaws you have listed has not been present in the game’s canon, addressed in any way or even mentioned, apart from one of the lead devs for the story stating “yeah its not a thing in warcraft”, while the rest are regularly portrayed and built into the setting

you can make up the most rational ideas to support your idea for a character that might not like the gays, but such ideas will always be trumped by the above reasoning and everyone else who understand and support it

[Croecell-argent-dawn (Croecell)]

@Garlakk-argent-dawn

read the thread

you know these people are like; “TL:DR here’s my opinion that has been shown to be wrong for the umpteenth time”

[Coalburnt-argent-dawn]

@Silverveil-argent-dawn

I never said anything about slurs.

You didn’t have to, it was implied.

Please spare me the “Oh I didn’t actually say that” routine.

[Silverveil-argent-dawn]

Well, yeah, the argument that there’s no basis for it in the setting is also valid. Again, that’s not what I was addressing either. The original post made it out like roleplaying a bigoted character is immoral, and that was what I was making a counter-argument to.

@Coalburnt-argent-dawn

You didn’t have to, it was implied.

Please spare me the “Oh I didn’t actually say that” routine.

That’s not a good faith argument. Don’t assume my intentions. If you read my earlier posts, I clarified that I am not straight in real life. I have no latent desire to express my personal bigotry, or whatever you’re implying. I think using any modern term that doesn’t fit the setting, whether it’s a slur or not, is bad roleplay.

[Emberblast-argent-dawn (Emberblast)]

@Vixí-argent-dawn

Värld av Krigshantverk.
Värld av Krigshantverk: Det brinnande Korståget.
Värld av Krigshantverk: Lich(or Lik)-kungens Vrede.
Värld av Krigshantverk: Kataklysm
Värld av Krigshantverk: Pandarias dimmor.
Värld av Krigshantverk: Krigsherrarna från Draenor.
Värld av Krigshantverk: Legion.
Värld av Krigshantverk: Slaget för Azeroth.
Värld av Krigshantverk: Skugglandet.

Well now this sounds like a concept album I’d listen to

@Silverveil-argent-dawn

I understand there is an argument to be made that such subjects may or may not be against ToS, that wasn’t what I was addressing. What I didn’t understand was the moral argument that roleplaying a bigoted character is somehow ‘wrong’, while other immoral attitudes or actions are considered acceptable as long as they’re in-character.

You can’t equate different immoral attitudes and put them on the same slippery slope; Hate between factions and species that exist purely in the setting, relevant and justified within the setting, is very different from homophobia/sexism that doesn’t exist in the setting, is not relevant or justified in it, and the only way it exists is being imported wholesale from IRL homophobic attitudes.
Since in Warcraft there is no historical and systemic misogyny/homophobia, a character intentionally written as bigoted, would be bigoted in different ways - disliking other species, disliking the nobles/the peasants, people with smaller muscles, etc, whatever.

[Coalburnt-argent-dawn]

Then I think you have misread as no one is arguing against using setting-appropriate themes such as factional/racial distrust etc.

The issue is importing IRL attitudes into the game.

[Zagkush-argent-dawn]

@Silverveil-argent-dawn

Again, that’s not what I was addressing either.

Then a good read before you jump in into something might do you good.

@Silverveil-argent-dawn

The original post made it out like roleplaying a bigoted character is immoral, and that was what I was making a counter-argument to.

The original post is against homophobia IC and OOC now I guess, not sure what’s so wrong about that tbh.

@Silverveil-argent-dawn

That’s not a good faith argument. Don’t assume my intentions.

Don’t jump the gun yourself and expect otherwise.

@Silverveil-argent-dawn

I have no latent desire to express my personal bigotry, or whatever you’re implying. I think using any modern term that doesn’t fit the setting, whether it’s a slur or not, is bad roleplay.

Then why make those arguments in the first place?

[Obahar-argent-dawn]

@Silverveil-argent-dawn

What I didn’t understand was the moral argument that roleplaying a bigoted character is somehow ‘wrong’, while other immoral attitudes or actions are considered acceptable as long as they’re in-character.

WoW can be the LGBTQ+ communities way of escaping from IRL discrimination and stigma. Do you really want to bring that reality back to the people who wish to escape it?

[Garlakk-argent-dawn]

@Silverveil-argent-dawn

If you read my earlier posts, I clarified that I am not straight in real life.

I’m the avatar of straightness IRL and yet all my characters have been asexual old men who have a deeply rooted hatred towards the opposing faction (and also not use any reportable swear words yet they are racists to a fault)

frankly even before Blizzard started getting those +1s for their dishonest attempts at representation I had felt that blizzard made a very consious effort to keep sexuality and gender identities understated and at most we have seen heterosexual couples holding hands and marrying / kissing in whatever media they were shown

there were however no in-game examples of bigotry because of that. This does not change now that same sex couples hold hands, kiss and marry in the lore.

Its a fantasy setting that is very deliberately constructed to not have such sensitive topics covered, opposed or overrepresented that much and we role-play in it, meaning we have to abide to its in-universe rules, no matter how banal or infantile they might be

[Silverveil-argent-dawn]

@Obahar-argent-dawn

WoW can be the LGBTQ+ communities way of escaping from IRL discrimination and stigma. Do you really want to bring that reality back to the people who wish to escape it?

Can that argument not be made about anything? I’ve certainly met characters before with personality/backstory that made me uncomfortable for personal reasons, but I simply avoided them rather than expecting them to change their character for my sake. As long as any darker themes are presented (or hinted at) up front in their profile, I don’t see the issue. I want to hear you out though, I’m not trying to assert my view as ‘the correct one’, just having a dialogue about the matter.

[Mogi-argent-dawn (Mogi)]

@Silverveil-argent-dawn

clarified that I am not straight in real life.

That doesn’t excuse or justify it. Read the Lukas-arc if you need more context as to why being LGBT+ yourself doesn’t allow you to express bigotry through a character.

[Silverveil-argent-dawn]

Maybe I should clarify that none of my characters are homophobic either. I’m not going “I’LL DO WHAT I WANT”, I’m just asking questions about the reasoning behind condemning in-character actions as being immoral out of character.

[Emberblast-argent-dawn (Emberblast)]

Would also love to add that the awesome advice to be extra gentle and nuanced when writing around sensitive topics doesn’t end at homophobia, and the fact that inter-species hate exists in WoW doesn’t mean you should immediately run to consult 4chan and green frog discords on how to most realistically portray anti-void elf race rallies or something; It can be tricky to stay within the universe’s tone in the way they portray (or specifically avoid) various heavy topics, but please try to.

[Vixí-argent-dawn (Vixí)]

@Silverveil-argent-dawn

Can that argument not be made about anything?

It could technically if you want to devil’s advocate it, but ultmatly, homophobia and persecution because of sexual orientation is sadly very common out in the world to be a legitimate problem for many people, across all countries. And in some places, straight up dangerous.

There is zero justification or reason to bring that into a game where most people just want to have some fun in a fantasy world and escape their troubles for a while.

[Vixí-argent-dawn (Vixí)]

@Silverveil-argent-dawn

I’m just asking questions about the reasoning behind condemning in-character actions as being immoral out of character.

In this case, as discussed in both threads lengthily, it both has no basis and isnt allowed in the ToS. It is also something many people have trouble with IRL that it impacts lives quite heavily in a negative way.

Also so far, everyone who’s argued that they have a homophobic character in that manner, have proven themselves in both threads that, yeah. They are immoral out of character. As have a majority of people defending it. See Aisbury, Augustforge etc etc.

Roughly 90% of the time, it is geniune malicious thinking behind it.

[Vixí-argent-dawn (Vixí)]

I think look at how characters in WoW handle it. In most cases, racial hatred in WoW/specism is left at “Those blasted orcs.” kinda comments, nothing too much.

[Garlakk-argent-dawn]

@Vixí-argent-dawn

I think look at how characters in WoW handle it. In most cases, racial hatred in WoW/specism is left at “Those blasted orcs.” kinda comments, nothing too much.

Not really, its baked into the game’s setting to the point that most conflicts revolves around it

id even say that a wildhammer calling my dark iron a coalskinned troglodyte, my velf a bluehued freak or my mechagnome a clockwork diaperbaby are absolutely valid, despite the fact all of those examples target and mention superficial features (that may have more context to them)