Honest debate on LFD

[Shadowbones-gandling]

Yes, the majority of players were unable to find and run groups when they wanted too. Its why they added rdf.

Regarding not being able ti do anything about boosters, we can do something - we can lower the cost and effort required to have a successful dungeon run.

I’ve sure alot of people would like to run 1-60 dungeons while questing, but it costs too much effort.

1hour+ to gather players.
20minutes travelling (mountless in some cases!)
20minutes travelling back.

It’s just not worth it, so people don’t do it and pay for a boost to get the dungeon done.

[Vanillataur-nethergarde-keep]

@Superbrutal-dreadnaught

LFD was definitely one one of the features

ONE of the features - so right
The others being maybe

• all classes getting more or less the same abilities,
• all specs and talents being streamlined,
• all players suddenly being able to overpull and survive,
• bribes for completing dungeons,
• in-build Questhelper
  just to mention a few.
  LFD is only a symptom of the illness and as you can’t cure Corona by doling out Paracetamol for aches, pains and fever, you can’t cure Wrath by remowinfg LFD.

I played back then, and I remember how I suddenly went from carefully pulling mobs one or two at a time and grouping up for the red Quests in BC to freeing Metzen in Tanaris in low level Quest greens, killing 8 or ten mobs witout problems. If anything this made the game more anti-social. You could either do anything by oyourself or colect no matter whom to help you, no need to gear up, no need to prepare, no need in short to THINK!
If you want to remove all what made Wrath not a social game, we’re talking a total make-over.

[Vanillataur-nethergarde-keep]

@Superbrutal-dreadnaught

I think LFD was one of the feature that was an extreme change in the fundamentals of WoW as an MMORPG. Its not really comparable to some class balances or changes. You can see that right ?

No, I can’t see that people being able o solo almost all PvE content with one hand is not at least as big a change as LFD.

I dont think its true that wotlk players want the original features with no changes. We tried no changes to classic in the past and it didnt turn out well. Classic needs some changes even for wotlk. And like i said now we have the chance to build upon a new foundation where we dont have to implement some of the extreme features that changed the core philosophy of the game.

We never had No Changes, We had Some Changes, and see what this led to.

Classic does not need changes that ruin it for more people in order to please you.

[Redstomper-neptulon]

I guess I can give it a shot. I’m against Random Dungeon Finder in principle because of what it did to the game back in Cataclysm. Il start by going over what dungeon finder did to the game back then and then conclude on what I think it will do now.

When LFD was introduced in the ICC patch it didn’t change a lot for Wrath. It was late in the expansion and because t9 was available from badge gear, TOC dungeon / Raid was not that difficult, most people had really decent gear. To top that off Wrath was the easiest the game had ever been in terms of PvE. Unlike in TBC and vanilla all the raids (except Ulduar) were pugable with the current skill level of players. Threat was a non-factor and all classes had AoE, and all the dungeons were EXTREMELY easy compared to what heroics were like in TBC. All this meant that queing for a random dungeon was not that different than finding a random group. So the gameplay at level 80 did not change a whole lot. Perhaps the only really noticeable change was that Ninja looting item was suddenly Risk free, because of cross-realm groups, there were no consequences to bad behavior, because you would never see the people in your group again, and they couldn’t badmouth you anywhere other than the forums(lol).

For leveling, it became the easiest thing to just pick a healing / tank spec stand in the city and que random dungeons. This depopulated the world and made questing and rewards from quests obsolete. For new players, this is a horrible introduction to an MMORPG, because it is way more adventures to go an quest than it is to just do dungeons. In 2008 the amount of players joining the game was way higher than it is today. Sub numbers were still dropping, but the game had way more appeal and Blizzard had a way better reputation.

On the social side it changed a whole lot. The way to form groups was through guilds, the TBC LFG tool and trade chat. As we all agree, the LFG tool and trade chat are not that great for finding groups - which incentivized people to add people to their friends list to speed up the process and especially in the TBC era, insure smooth runs. With RDF, using guilds and friend lists were no longer incentivized. This is perhaps the most damning part of RDF, because keeping relations with the people in your guild and then friends list has always been THE most social aspect of WoW and every feature that removes incentive to use these tools will as a result reduces the socialization happening in WoW.

Now I mentioned the effects of RDF affected Cataclysm. During Wrath, the term “Wrath Baby” quickly emerged. The term is a derogatory term, used to describe the people who enjoyed the Wrath PvE experience. As I, and other people have mentioned: The classes were largely homogenized, because the philosophy changed to “bring the player, not the class”. All classes had AoE, Threat was such a non-issue that a single ability gave the tank agro on all mobs. Dungeons were easier as a result in addition to damage values being comparatively lower. Acquiring high level gear was also made easy by the daily HC that gave access to raid level gear without ever stepping into a raid.

The players from pre-wrath did not like that, because the challenge that they had gotten used too was simply removed from the game. Blizzard initially agreed, and so they made the dungeons in Cataclysm much much harder. The problem was that a lot of the people that had gotten used to the wrath style of PvE could not keep up, and since RDF was the way to get into dungeon groups, these people had not been in guilds. They did not add people to their friends list, because the members were from other servers. As a result the successrate for heroic dungeons formed through RDF was abysmal in the start of Cataclysm. Even when they introduced the 5% dmg, healing and HP buff per random member, capped at 15% it did not help a lot. The result was that the dungeons ended up being HEAVILY nerfed to accommodate. I recommend watching TotalBiscuits “Azeroth Daily” series, to see the sentiment of a part of the playerbase at the time, as well as blue posts from that era showing the nerfs and changes.

This is the legacy of RDF. It reduced the incentive to get into guilds and use the friends list thereby reducing the socialization of WoW. It removed players from the world because they stood afk in cities even in the leveling process, reducing the random friendly / hostile encounters in the world and finally it resulted in a mayor reduction in the games difficulty.

The question is: What will it do to Wrath classic? Even though I hate RDF for what it did to retail if I am honest I don’t think it will change a lot in Wrath. People have been getting boosts since classic, so with the exception of the first few weeks, almost no one will be leveling in the lower level zones and even Northrend. Dungeons were already a joke in Wrath, and with the current experience of the player base, its going to be even more of a joke. A lot of the socialization that WoW had in guilds and on the friends list have moved to Discord instead.

The main argument for keeping RDF out of the game is that, while a lot of the socializing has moved to discord, not all of it has. To me it adds to the game feeling alive that people post in the trade/LFG chat to find groups, and with RDF being cross-realm all the groups that form feel artificial, because the people will be nobodies. They might as well be ghosts, because there the chance of seeing them again is neglectable. With the formed groups I have some incentive to socialize and keep an eye out for players I want to play with in the future.

The final point is somewhat weak, but id like to include it regardless. The people asking for classic back wanted classic era realms, because at that time, the world felt more real, because players were more out in the world and because player relations mattered a lot more. And while it has turned out to be much much different than the original experience of 2005-2010, it is simply not in the spirit of the community’s wish for a second chance at that feeling to include a feature that has a proven negative effect on the relationships between players.

That’s my take on this. I apologize for any spelling / grammar errors. English is not my native tongue.

[Triva-theradras]

@Redstomper-neptulon

For leveling, it became the easiest thing to just pick a healing / tank spec stand in the city and que random dungeons. This depopulated the world and made questing and rewards from quests obsolete. For new players, this is a horrible introduction to an MMORPG, because it is way more adventures to go an quest than it is to just do dungeons.

The reality today is that dungeons are rarely part of the leveling process, besides boosting. Even on firemaw there are usually 2-3 leveling groups searching for 1-60 dungeons at peak times. Only tanks had instant invites and dps leveled as usual in the open world, since they were 10-30min in queue until a dungeon popped. If players queue premade to get instant invites, isnt that the exact thing Blizzard wants to accomplish, since it potentially makes players make social bounds? Currently new players on firemaw cant even find a way to a dungeon without an experienced player organizing it, because without bulletin they cannot see anything in the spammed LFG-chat.

@Redstomper-neptulon

On the social side it changed a whole lot. The way to form groups was through guilds, the TBC LFG tool and trade chat.

So you need to have a guild as a new player now to get into dungeons. I dont think thats better either. Not everyone wants to start in a guild. Many just want to play the game without social bounds and maybe look for a fitting guild at max level.

@Redstomper-neptulon

As we all agree, the LFG tool and trade chat are not that great for finding groups - which incentivized people to add people to their friends list to speed up the process and especially in the TBC era, insure smooth runs.

But how does a new player without knowledge about addons find groups to make these bonds to begin with? The current situation makes it nearly impossible for new players to make these experiences, if they are not in a guild.

@Redstomper-neptulon

In 2008 the amount of players joining the game was way higher than it is today. Sub numbers were still dropping, but the game had way more appeal and Blizzard had a way better reputation.

Kinda unnecessary to mention, but the sub numbers werent dropping until early cataclysm. Blizzard had better reputation because they had actually better quality to offer.

@Redstomper-neptulon

This is the legacy of RDF. It reduced the incentive to get into guilds and use the friends list thereby reducing the socialization of WoW. It removed players from the world because they stood afk in cities even in the leveling process, reducing the random friendly / hostile encounters in the world and finally it resulted in a mayor reduction in the games difficulty.

I agree that with the need to have a guild to get into dungeon, players are more likely to join guilds. But what about the new players that dont want to join guilds? Do they not have the right to play dungeons from time to time during the leveling process?
About the “dead world” part, there were just less players leveling. Currently maybe less than 1% of the players actually use dungeons (besides boosts) to level. Do you think with RDF the other 99% of the players will play primarily with RDF after its introduction? I dont think so, but even if, isnt playing in random groups still a better way to meet players and socialize, than questing solo?

@Redstomper-neptulon

The question is: What will it do to Wrath classic? Even though I hate RDF for what it did to retail if I am honest I don’t think it will change a lot in Wrath.

Looking at any wotlk private server we can see the impact on social interaction within wotlk with RDF is really limited. At least its much better than on tbc currently. The one thing Blizzard should consider by adding RDF is the prioritize realm wide groups, so players can actually make meaningful bounds within the RDF groups.

@Redstomper-neptulon

The main argument for keeping RDF out of the game is that, while a lot of the socializing has moved to discord, not all of it has. To me it adds to the game feeling alive that people post in the trade/LFG chat to find groups, and with RDF being cross-realm all the groups that form feel artificial, because the people will be nobodies. They might as well be ghosts, because there the chance of seeing them again is neglectable. With the formed groups I have some incentive to socialize and keep an eye out for players I want to play with in the future.

As pointed out, the high bar to join group activates as a new player makes it more likely they just keep playing solo until they reach max level. Doing dungeons with other people wouldnt do much harm, since most wouldnt socialize in the time they do the dungeon either way. On the contrary, it is more likely to make bounds when you play with a group.
While I personally dont like cross realm for the reasons to pointed out, like players not being able to play again together and make meaningful bounds, for low pop server there is no other way than cross realm RDF, if players want to do dungeons while leveling.

@Redstomper-neptulon

The final point is somewhat weak, but id like to include it regardless. The people asking for classic back wanted classic era realms, because at that time, the world felt more real, because players were more out in the world and because player relations mattered a lot more. And while it has turned out to be much much different than the original experience of 2005-2010, it is simply not in the spirit of the community’s wish for a second chance at that feeling to include a feature that has a proven negative effect on the relationships between players.

While this might be true for some classic and tbc players, many wotlk fans dont want to relive a past experience, they want to play an actually decent wow game for once. And since wotlk was game design wise at its peak, like private server popularity and retail player number history prove, it shouldnt be altered for no good reason and calling it “the spirit of the communty’s wish”, although every player has their favorite expansion and listening to vanilla/tbc fans for their opinion about wotlk, of course they want it to be closer to the original design. However, most wotlk fans, that are the majority looking at the latest RDF polls, want to have the game as it was, not how a minority wishes it to be.
The reasons for RDF outweigh the potential risk of diminishing social interactions by far. Arguably it could even have a positive impact on social interactions. Mentioning how terrible cataclysm was or how bad the game became in later expansions isnt a legit argument for wotlk changes.

[Sandy-amnennar]

@Triva-theradras

Looking at any wotlk private server we can see the impact on social interaction within wotlk with RDF is really limited

Pservers aren’t crossrealm and usually tend to be more community oriented anyway.

I don’t think they are a good example.

[Redstomper-neptulon]

I would like to ask a few questions and use some quotes from your answers to add context as to why I am asking them.

Part 1:

@Triva-theradras

So you need to have a guild as a new player now to get into dungeons. I dont think thats better either. Not everyone wants to start in a guild. Many just want to play the game without social bounds and maybe look for a fitting guild at max level.

@Triva-theradras

I agree that with the need to have a guild to get into dungeon, players are more likely to join guilds. But what about the new players that dont want to join guilds? Do they not have the right to play dungeons from time to time during the leveling process?
About the “dead world” part, there were just less players leveling. Currently maybe less than 1% of the players actually use dungeons (besides boosts) to level. Do you think with RDF the other 99% of the players will play primarily with RDF after its introduction? I dont think so, but even if, isnt playing in random groups still a better way to meet players and socialize, than questing solo?

Playing WoW without social bounds is a really really strange way to play an MMORPG - the whole point of a multiplayer game is to play with other people. And in a massive multiplayer game, the point is to form larger groups through the game to do the group / raid content.

I understand that there are people who want to play WoW solo - there always has been, but the way I see it, if you want to participate in group content, you should have to participate in the “grouping” process. There isn’t a player given “right” to play dungeons and experience group content. There is the possibility within the game to do certain activities. If you don’t like to participate in the processes that enable those activities, in this case forming and participating in groups or guilds, those activities are simply not available to you.

My first question is this: (To anyone reading this post)
In your opinion, to what degree should players rely on relationships rather than game features to participate in and accomplish group aspects of the game?

Part 2:

@Triva-theradras

While I personally dont like cross realm for the reasons to pointed out, like players not being able to play again together and make meaningful bounds, for low pop server there is no other way than cross realm RDF, if players want to do dungeons while leveling.

@Triva-theradras

The one thing Blizzard should consider by adding RDF is the prioritize realm wide groups, so players can actually make meaningful bounds within the RDF groups.

In these quotes you agree that cross-realm RDF does hurt socialization and that you would like some changes to how RDF should prioritize players. So while we disagree on whether or not RDF should be implemented, we at least agree that there are some serious downsides that can be mitigated. Maybe through some changes to player priority.

Second question: (Again, open to anyone who would like to answer)
If you could have RDF implemented EXACTLY like you wanted it to be, how would the system function?

Finally I would like to address 2 things.

1. :

@Triva-theradras

Mentioning how terrible cataclysm was or how bad the game became in later expansions isnt a legit argument for wotlk changes.

I did not mean to say that the changes in Cataclysm as a legitimate argument for what should happen in Wrath. If it came across that way I apologize. The reason why I mentioned Cata and laid out a timeline for the impact of RDF was to explain why I am extremely biased towards adding RDF. I hate it with the passion of a 15 year WoW player.

2.:

@Triva-theradras

While this might be true for some classic and tbc players, many wotlk fans dont want to relive a past experience, they want to play an actually decent wow game for once. And since wotlk was game design wise at its peak, like private server popularity and retail player number history prove, it shouldnt be altered for no good reason and calling it “the spirit of the communty’s wish”, although every player has their favorite expansion and listening to vanilla/tbc fans for their opinion about wotlk, of course they want it to be closer to the original design. However, most wotlk fans, that are the majority looking at the latest RDF polls, want to have the game as it was, not how a minority wishes it to be.

To keep this discussion real I would like to cement something: Having RDF in Wrath classic since day one would be changing Wrath. Not having RDF in from day one would be to keep the game as it originally was.

We can argue about what we think “peak” game design is, and we probably disagree on when WoW was best, but regarding RDF we should stick to the facts. Wrath was not designed with RDF in mind. It was not in the game until the ICC patch(3.3). Even though 3.3 was a really long patch (December 2009 - October 2010 (4.0.1)), the majority of Wrath was without RDF.

When I say that Wrath was not designed with RDF in mind this is what I mean: Implementing a tool that teleports you to a random place in the world without context of your current location / quest progress is a really clumsy way of introducing the player to the story and the world.

As an example: If you’re questing in Barrens and progress to Stonetalon Mountains and get ported to Blackfathom Deeps with a que pop. You’re in a completely different biodome, with completely different enemies, in a random location in the world. With no context as to why you’re fighting and no quests to explain anything or give any extra objectives. As opposed to Cataclysm, where all dungeon quest givers were located inside the dungeons at the entrance.

[Triva-theradras]

@Sandy-amnennar

Pservers aren’t crossrealm and usually tend to be more community oriented anyway.

I don’t think they are a good example.

While you are correct, we can the low the impact on social interactions for a dungeon finder thats realm wide only. If the main argument against the feature is the social aspect, introducing it as a realm wide version should be alright. This doesnt solve the problem for dead realms though, but Blizzards idea for a tool doesnt fix any aspect that RDF fixes.

@Redstomper-neptulon

My first question is this: (To anyone reading this post)
In your opinion, to what degree should players rely on relationships rather than game features to participate in and accomplish group aspects of the game?

People are different. Some people go the the soccer field just to play some games without hanging out the the other players after the game. The only come to play a match, thats it. Its the same for wow. Some just want to run a dungeon because its fun and dont look for a chatting platform.
In my opinion, anyone should have access to casual content like battlegrounds and dungeons without having to be in a special social community. As said, there are many players who just want to play a good game and dont want to be forced to rely on social communities to play for one or two hours a day. If the more challenging content like finishing raids and climb in arena requires a group of players that know each other and improves strategies together, thats great, however not all endgame content should be gated by the need of social bounds.

@Redstomper-neptulon

Second question: (Again, open to anyone who would like to answer)
If you could have RDF implemented EXACTLY like you wanted it to be, how would the system function?

I actually made a topic about this:

LFD - the way it should be implemented

Since the discussion regarding LFD is mainly about “yes” or “no”, I would like to point out how LFD could be implemented, in case we get it as a defining key feature for the upcoming classic wotlk. Desired implementation of the LFD tool LFD group building should favor players of one realm Only if a group couldn’t be formed within ~10-15 minutes due to the lack of players queuing on a realm, the search will be expanded to other servers as well this will help keeping server communities toget…

@Redstomper-neptulon

We can argue about what we think “peak” game design is, and we probably disagree on when WoW was best, but regarding RDF we should stick to the facts. Wrath was not designed with RDF in mind. It was not in the game until the ICC patch(3.3). Even though 3.3 was a really long patch (December 2009 - October 2010 (4.0.1)), the majority of Wrath was without RDF.

I would argue the other way around. While wotlk wasnt designed to have RDF, it was introduced because it fit in so well and solved many problems. Wotlk was not designed around the RDF, but the RDF was designed around wotlk. The lack of content even proves how well the RDF filled the gap by enabling players to play their alt chars casually and still make progress.

@Redstomper-neptulon

When I say that Wrath was not designed with RDF in mind this is what I mean: Implementing a tool that teleports you to a random place in the world without context of your current location / quest progress is a really clumsy way of introducing the player to the story and the world.

We could use that the same argument against battlegrounds or any teleports like summoning stones, warlock ports or even hearthstones. However, while its arguably not the best way to immerse players by allowing teleportation, it is a necessary evil for group activities. Imagine no teleports available at all, like no summoning stones and a whole raid would have to travel to a location because of the immersion. It makes sense when it comes to the immersion-argument, but is not more valid than the teleport of a RDF.
The dungeons in wotlk are designed to have much less trash and are finished much faster than any dungeons before. With this in mind it doesnt make sense to make players travel for a longer period, than they actually play the dungeon (this is an exaggeration, but I think you get the point).

@Redstomper-neptulon

As an example: If you’re questing in Barrens and progress to Stonetalon Mountains and get ported to Blackfathom Deeps with a que pop. You’re in a completely different biodome, with completely different enemies, in a random location in the world. With no context as to why you’re fighting and no quests to explain anything or give any extra objectives. As opposed to Cataclysm, where all dungeon quest givers were located inside the dungeons at the entrance.

As said, it would be the very same change of environment if you get a port from the summoning stone or get teleported by a warlock. The teleporting isnt tied to the RDF, it just causes 5 players to get teleported instead oft 3 players. The addition to teleport the players back to where they were was included, so leveling players had no issues to continue their journey.

[Vanillataur-nethergarde-keep]

@Redstomper-neptulon

In your opinion, to what degree should players rely on relationships rather than game features to participate in and accomplish group aspects of the game?

To the degree they want to. We are not all alike, and sometimes chat is just not you.
Groups are not always about relations, sometimes a common goal suffices - and this goes for grouping up for Quests too.

If you could have RDF implemented EXACTLY like you wanted it to be, how would the system function?

LFD if I could decide:

• Not there at launch.
• No extra rewards.
• Not crossrealm.
• Teleporting players to the meetingstone, and
• Teleporting players back to where the left off questing after dungeon is done.

I actually like the teleport back feature. I often say no to a dungeon, because I have to go all the way back again after we’re done.

I am not an expert on any tecnical aspects, but I think what you say about changing environment is a non-argument. Then HS should not be a thing either, and you should always sail/fly all the way from one continent to another instead of seeing the map and bing you’re in Kalimdor / Eastern Kingdom / Northrend.

Edited for clarity and typos.

[Redstomper-neptulon]

I am going to attempt something difficult and answer 2 people at once, because I think your answers to question 1 is rooted in the same perspective.

@Triva-theradras

People are different. Some people go the the soccer field just to play some games without hanging out the the other players after the game. The only come to play a match, thats it. Its the same for wow. Some just want to run a dungeon because its fun and dont look for a chatting platform.
In my opinion, anyone should have access to casual content like battlegrounds and dungeons without having to be in a special social community.

@Vanillataur-nethergarde-keep

To the degree they want to. We are not all alike, and sometimes chat is just not you.
Groups are not always about relations, sometimes a common goal suffices - and this goes for grouping up for Quests too.

Correct me If I am wrong. These answers to me indicate that your ground philosophy is that the game should adapt to the players, rather than the players adapt to the game.

I strongly disagree with this sentiment. People are different and that means they like different things and different aspects of different things. That’s obviously great. What isn’t great is if someone doesn’t enjoy a certain part of the game, they demand it changed to accommodate them, especially when it is in a way that changes an aspect that is fundamental to the genre of that game, because that ruins it for the people who enjoyed how it originally was.

In a game where socialization should be a core part of how the players and the content operate, the degree to which you socialize will have an impact on how much of the game you can participate in. If you don’t want to participate in the bare minimum of joining a dungeon group by whispering people, you should, in my opinion, simply not do dungeons.

@Triva-theradras

@Redstomper-neptulon

We can argue about what we think “peak” game design is, and we probably disagree on when WoW was best, but regarding RDF we should stick to the facts. Wrath was not designed with RDF in mind. It was not in the game until the ICC patch(3.3). Even though 3.3 was a really long patch (December 2009 - October 2010 (4.0.1)), the majority of Wrath was without RDF.

I would argue the other way around. While wotlk wasnt designed to have RDF, it was introduced because it fit in so well and solved many problems. Wotlk was not designed around the RDF, but the RDF was designed around wotlk. The lack of content even proves how well the RDF filled the gap by enabling players to play their alt chars casually and still make progress.

My point here was simply that you and others in this thread had said that you wanted the game as it was originally and therefore RDF should be in Wrath from launch. And Fact of the matter is, RDF was not in Wrath at launch. So including it would be changing Wrath.

Expanding on your point though: I’m not entirely sure what you mean when you say it “fit in” and “solved so many problems”. Could you elaborate?

The way I see it the only problem it did solve was that way more low level dungeons got completed because it was now the best way to level. But that created an entirely new problem which was that it emptied out the world, because now even low levels had no incentive to be there.

At max level, que times were still really long if you weren’t a healer or a tank. It is the nature of scarcity that if someone is in high demand, they have multiple options. In this case faster group completion times. Both with and without RDF it is easier to find a group if you’re a tank or a healer.

The que times for DPS were and has always been, really really long. So the time to get a group formed didn’t change drastically for anyone. It just allowed people who didn’t want to spend time to form groups to get into them.

That does solve a problem for those people who don’t want to socialize to get into a group,
but the way it “solves” it, is by entirely removing the group forming process, there by DRASTICALLY reducing player interaction at all levels of the game. I am personally not willing to make that trade.

@Triva-theradras

We could use that the same argument against battlegrounds or any teleports like summoning stones, warlock ports or even hearthstones. However, while its arguably not the best way to immerse players by allowing teleportation, it is a necessary evil for group activities. Imagine no teleports available at all, like no summoning stones and a whole raid would have to travel to a location because of the immersion. It makes sense when it comes to the immersion-argument, but is not more valid than the teleport of a RDF.

It isn’t hard to imagine such a world - we just had that in classic. If you didn’t have a warlock in group, there was no summoning.

I am not against teleportation as a whole. I’m against teleportation when it isn’t player instigated. To teleport somewhere with your hearthstone, you have to visit that place first. To use a summoning stone, you coordinate with your party who travels to the dungeon. If you have a Warlock you get 2 acquaintances and do a Ritual of Summoning. If you want a mage portal, you speak to a mage. To get into a battleground, you speak with the Battlemaster - who is located at a player hub so you see / meet other players queuing for the same thing. This is what led to the dual areas outside SW / Org / IF.

@Trivia
Regarding your suggestions in the other thread, I think they are all improvements to be sure, especially the part about the que waiting 10-15 minutes with players from your own realm. I also had not thought about the point of lower levels just disbanding the dungeons if they had to walk to far. I disagree on teleportation at level 80 though. All the dungeons will be in Northrend and everyone has flying. It should not be an issue to get anywhere. I also would like to add that there needs to be further restrictions on item level, perhaps based on role. Just having a flat number that includes items from your bags like originally further incentivizes ninja looting.

@ Vanillataur
The changes are really similar to those of Trivia, except no cross-realm. Which I’m obviously a fan of.

If I was told RDF was in at Wrath regardless, your suggestions would be very welcome.

But since we are debating whether RDF should be in or not: I am not willing to trade a fundamental player interactive aspect of the game for a tool that eases dungeon runs for a portion of the player base. And So I am still against RDF.

[Vanillataur-nethergarde-keep]

Yeah, you put yourself between two chairs, so now I’m going to shoot at you!

@Redstomper-neptulon

What isn’t great is if someone doesn’t enjoy a certain part of the game, they demand it changed to accommodate them, especially when it is in a way that changes an aspect that is fundamental to the genre of that game, because that ruins it for the people who enjoyed how it originally was.

Wow from the start was not one game. It could be played in a lot of different ways, and it was fun almost no matter how you choose to play it.
And a lot - if not all the QoL changes ppl are clamouring for here (Gender, race, faction changes - mogging, dual spec, Questhelpers (introduced in map in Wrath)) made the game not as it was originally.
I take it that you - like me - play Wow without any addons.

@Redstomper-neptulon

In a game where socialization should be a core part of how the players and the content operate

This is your definition. It’s a game meant to be played with other people, as quests, dungeons and so on are not made to be solo-able. But the handbook from back then speaks heaps about collaboration, grouping up, being nice and so on, not one word about socializing.
And I do not like you to tell me how to play - implicitly telling me that I have played the game in a wrong way since 2006.
There is not one right way to play WoW!

And I NEVER ever wanted changes. I have been a staunch #NoChanges guy from day one.

@Redstomper-neptulon

I am not against teleportation as a whole. I’m against teleportation when it isn’t player instigated. To teleport somewhere with your hearthstone, you have to visit that place first. To use a summoning stone, you coordinate with your party who travels to the dungeon. If you have a Warlock you get 2 acquaintances and do a Ritual of Summoning. If you want a mage portal, you speak to a mage. To get into a battleground, you speak with the Battlemaster - who is located at a player hub so you see / meet other players queuing for the same thing.

Teleportation is a practical thing. Mage teleportation or Meeting stone teleportation won’t get me back to where I was when I accepted the summons. This is actually the one aspect of LFD i really like.
I often can’t be arsed to travel to the other end of the world and back just to do a dungeon. This results in me not doing dungeons - actually so far in Classic I have done one single dungeon.

To get into a battleground, you speak with the Battlemaster - who is located at a player hub so you see / meet other players queuing for the same thing.

We could then put up Dungeonmasters in the cities or out in the world 'porting us to the dungeons, then.

But as I have said a zillion times: LFD is a really minor thing to me, it could exist or not - no great matter. I might run a few more dungeons with it in-game as per teleporting issues above.
I only care for #noChanges, and as LFD was in Wrath, it should be in Wrath Classic - but NOT at launch.

[Zalanji-mirage-raceway]

@Redstomper-neptulon

At max level, que times were still really long if you weren’t a healer or a tank. It is the nature of scarcity that if someone is in high demand, they have multiple options. In this case faster group completion times. Both with and without RDF it is easier to find a group if you’re a tank or a healer.

I like how you talk about “queue times”, as if we have those in the game right now.

We don’t. We don’t have a queue, and that’s the biggest reason why we need something like RDF in the first place. Right now, you could spend the entire day looking for a group and come up empty. Because you never make it in time to whisper other people before you do, or because people constantly skip your class/spec and/or don’t want to group with you, etc. Stuff like x-realm and teleportation are one thing, but auto-queue is pretty much a must - without it, nothing will change no matter how pretty the interface is.

And ftr, at least from my experience on WotLK pservers over the last few years, even as a pure DPS I rarely had to wait more than 15 mins on peak time, 30 or so mins off peak, to get into a group. I wish I could say the same about my TBCC experience here on Mirage Raceway.

[Triva-theradras]

@Redstomper-neptulon

Correct me If I am wrong. These answers to me indicate that your ground philosophy is that the game should adapt to the players, rather than the players adapt to the game.

I strongly disagree with this sentiment. People are different and that means they like different things and different aspects of different things. That’s obviously great. What isn’t great is if someone doesn’t enjoy a certain part of the game, they demand it changed to accommodate them, especially when it is in a way that changes an aspect that is fundamental to the genre of that game, because that ruins it for the people who enjoyed how it originally was.

In a game where socialization should be a core part of how the players and the content operate, the degree to which you socialize will have an impact on how much of the game you can participate in. If you don’t want to participate in the bare minimum of joining a dungeon group by whispering people, you should, in my opinion, simply not do dungeons.

I understand your point, but you have to acknowledge there are different types of players. If we stick the the soccer-example, you want anyone interested in soccer (analogy: dungeons) to be forced to join a soccer club with more club activities (analogy: guild) before they can use the playing field (analogy: dungeon). Sure, they could play alone at home (analogy: questing/solo content), but these players want to stand on the field. They dont want to join a club, since not everyone likes clubs, or just doesnt have the time. To play official matches or tournaments (analogy: raids), however, most players will need to be in a club anyways.

So these players want to play dungeon, want to play with other people, but dont want to have these social bonds you see as a core feature. In my personal opinion, while encouraging players to form social bonds is a good thing, even in the real world the people are socially different and while some like to be part of clubs, some want to just take part in these activities non-committal from time to time and some even stay for themselves or only their closest friends/families.
Thinking that gating the major part of content behind the requirement to actively socialize is a good thing, doesnt fit to reality, but only to our ideals of a social world.

@Redstomper-neptulon

The way I see it the only problem it did solve was that way more low level dungeons got completed because it was now the best way to level. But that created an entirely new problem which was that it emptied out the world, because now even low levels had no incentive to be there.

Even if running dungeons was the best way to level, which I am not certain about, there werent many tanks and healers leveling. For dps specs, which were the vast majority, waiting times for dungeons were 10-45minutes. I cant remember anyone just waiting in the city, since players (maybe besides some blasting tanks) leveled in the world doing quests while waiting for their invites. Those dps who might spam premade dungeons with a tank, can already do so today.

@Redstomper-neptulon

The que times for DPS were and has always been, really really long. So the time to get a group formed didn’t change drastically for anyone. It just allowed people who didn’t want to spend time to form groups to get into them.

The thing is, as a dps you currently have to keep your eyes on the chat/bulletin NONSTOP, because if you do, the one spot popping up is taken within seconds. Dps players with underperforming gear do not even get a chance to join a group. These are two aspects that would be resolved with the RDF.

@Redstomper-neptulon

That does solve a problem for those people who don’t want to socialize to get into a group,
but the way it “solves” it, is by entirely removing the group forming process, there by DRASTICALLY reducing player interaction at all levels of the game. I am personally not willing to make that trade.

I am not sure you grasp the current situation (for me on Firemaw) correctly. People (mostly dps players) keep watching bulletin and once a new group pops, they write “inv”, sometimes with gear information, to the person. They either get an invite, or, like most of the time, they get ignored. That goes for 30-120 minutes. There is nothing engaging or social about that, its draining and not fun.
The players wont change with RDF. Some are social and some are not. Its the same for dungeons. For most players a dungeon is place to have fun by defeating npcs in a group and not primarily a place to chat for social reasons.

[Redstomper-neptulon]

I have read your posts, and I am going to reply. I have an exam tomorrow (Friday 20th of May), I will return with answers on Saturday.

[Vanillataur-nethergarde-keep]

Good luck!

[Dzonathan-silvermoon]

If you cared to play with them then you wouldn’t let such technicality stop you.

[Sandy-amnennar]

Enlight me then. What am i supposed to do ? Transfer ? Discord ? Battle.net friend ?

This isn’t how relations work you know.

You do don’t this right from the start. It’s still a “stranger i had fun with”.
You are supposed to do content together to slowly develop friendship (or not)

Thanks for proving my point btw.

[Zalanji-mirage-raceway]

@Sandy-amnennar

“They don’t share my opinions so their arguments are weak”

With crossrealm LFD, if i have fun with someone during a dungeons. This fun/social won’t last after the dungeons because we won’t be able to play together anymore.

It’s a reason why a lot of players aren’t even trying to socialize anymore.

By this logic, we shouldn’t have X-realm BGs either, dead realms be damned.

Unless they do something serious about the population issue (which I’m 99% they won’t despite their protestations to the contrary), having X-realm LFD might be as much of an acceptable compromise to let ppl play as X-realm BGs are. Much like, in PvP, you still get to form groups for Arena, you still have pug raids to socialize with ppl in PvE. I don’t understand why ppl keep acting as if dungeons are the central part of the PvE experience in WotLK rather than the “raid waiting room” they really are.

[Vanillataur-nethergarde-keep]

If you had left out that last remark on Dungeons being a “raid waiting room”, I’d have given you a heart. Now half a heart has to sufficce.

[Zalanji-mirage-raceway]

@Vanillataur-nethergarde-keep

If you had left out that last remark on Dungeons being a “raid waiting room”, I’d have given you a heart. Now half a heart has to sufficce.

I don’t intend to diss people who enjoy dungeons, but I also believe that, as far as most people are concerned, dungeons are neither the final nor the central part of the PvE experience in WotLK. I don’t see what’s so controversial or divisive about this. I’m pretty sure the large majority of ppl who actually remember this version of WoW would agree.

What I mean by that is that the experience of “having fun with other people and adding them to your friendlist” can still be had in raids, but ppl on dead realms, with less-than-popular specs or playing off peak times don’t have another option.