Good for them. On alliance side it doesnt worth it, especially if they know they are severely handicapped in attack even if they break through that defence.
So, the way for Alliance to win AV is to cap SFGY and kind of play the map the way it is meant for it to be played. For this to work though you have to get lucky with your comp (and theirs) so you have the ability to actually push the horde back. I was in one that was stacked with mages and healers and we just rammed them back all the way.
However, even if you win doing this you’re looking at an hour and a half minimum and there’s very little stomach for that in the chat so nobody tries for SFGY in most games. Even suggesting it is drowned out by the spam of ‘StACk oN StAR WIeP THEeM RuSH IB’. Unfortunately every tactic that involves fast games massively favours the horde unless the Alliance is super co-ordinated.
As someone above said, Alliance do theoretically have a very defendable main base but by the time the Horde get there most are AFK in the tunnel.
Yes.
Ah wait, just noticed you said “much easier”. Then no. It’s easier, sure. Not by much though. PvP is what decides it in the end, yet when an Alliance team has been pushed back to that point, the first clash kinda already showed which side is bringing it more.
While Bodiesan mentioned a few of his games where the Alliance got IBGY and then the Horde managed to turn it around because the Alliance started giving up, that’s a mindset thing again. The Alliance started that by bringing more. Yet they gave up on it. (Probably because it was taking too long…)
For example, if you bring 40x40 and contrate all on one part of the map. Let’s say the IWB choke hold, where the Alliance are trying to reclaim the SH GY while it’s still being assaulted.
There’s enough time to gather up the full force of 40, to then do a sweeping rush into the Horde line. The better team will defeat the other much faster, regardless of where the GY is, when it’s in those numbers.
Yet when Alliance lose these sorts of clashes, they start blaming the map again instead.
Endemic mindset issues.
No, they really don’t. It’s actually the opposite. That first clash is what decides it, and it’s fought closer to Alliance territory. Hence, the Alliance have the advantage since they, under normal PvP conditions, gets reinforcements faster.
I’ve never claimed the map is symmetrical. But some people are too caught up in their martyr complex to understand the asymmetrical design intent behind it. You know, you get an advantage in one way in one place, while they get some other advantage in one way in another place. So on and so forth. Yet because of the martyr complex, they get the feeling the “world is against them” and “everything is made to make us lose”.
Another way to put it is that they’re hypersensitive to the cons, so much that they lose sight of the pros.
This stack on a star is so called “Lets carry this Streamer” - Tactic
Also the true way Alliance win AV is to get Russians to farm the Horde in their cave until they make whining threads on the forums. Well met!
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i also felt like Russians are totally playing this game from the hearth, always enjoyed seeing them on the fields of battle because that way i got to play with players that first of all, want to win, does not give up and also they felt like they had some kind of respect towards their brothers and sisters in alterac valley
All premade exploiters should be banned permanently.
You don’t have to argue mindset and player skill/gear/talents etc. with me. I know those are the big factors here. If you win consistently in the PvP u usually win the bg.
Actually the cave near IBGY is a much better spawn compared to SPGY, and it’s closer. Hence, I said its much easier to defend IBGY. This does give an advantage IN MID because the horde can more easily hold their GY and not get pushed south. Once the horde pushes further north the alliance has the advantage with the best choke points on the map. If they can launch an attack while holding that choke they will most likely win.
The first clash doesn’t decide it, it’s just an indicator. I’ve played many games where the alliance wiped the horde and then the horde regrouped and proceeded to push the alliance back…
This is exactly what I’m talking about. Good day, friend.
Actually that’s a misconception.
Just because it’s closer, it doesn’t mean it brings a significant advantage in the PvP being played out. So in this scenario, the Horde has already lost mid, and Alliance is bringing the “bigger guns” so to speak. So with SF GY first, while still controlling mid (somehow they never go for both at the same time, even though map control is key), they’ve got a fairly close GY to IB GY. Not the “exact same” run time, but close enough to serve as reinforcements when dying at IB GY.
So as long as they keep sending Horde players faster to the GY than they’re getting sent to the GY, then they’ll eventually land that IB GY cap.
Or as you put it:
If you wanna talk about cave spawn, then SP GY has that same “advantage”. SP GY should therefore be “impossible” to cap as Horde, since the Alliance spawns so close from their own cave.
Another way to put it is that, for example like you said where Alliance managed to win in mid then still lose eventually, it is about that will to win and the ability to do so in the PvP fights.
So as soon as their will breaks (which doesn’t take long, and never did take long), it has a ripple effect where the Horde starts building up a wave of victories in the PvP fights, and thus wins the BG as a result.
It’s simply decided via the PvP. Horde has disadvantages to break through, while Alliance has disadvantages to break through. Yet somehow, it’s not really affecting Horde that much, while Alliance seems stuck like they can’t their way out of a maze because of it.
It’s only a misconception if it’s a slow push into the GY. Often there’s some sneaky players who go around and cap the GY. This throws the reinforcements further away and is much worse for the alliance. The horde cave is closer AND has 2 spirit healers so there’s not those few who don’t get ressed with the first wave.
Yes SPGY is probably the best choke point in the game, or maybe its the bridge.
Again, you don’t have to talk about will or mindset or gear/skill/talents. I know the horde wins because of those things. I’m just objectively discussing the map, not saying it decides who wins. The alliance don’t even use their strong choke points most of the time, or they are too weak to hold it because no PvPers join AV on alliance, just mostly rep grinders.
If the Alliance is able to send more than 10 people to the GY within 30 seconds, it seems very unlikely they can’t keep doing that over and over. People put way too much emphasis on the cave respawn, for real. Most of the time not even 10 ress per wave, thus making that “2 spirit healers” argument kinda meaningless.
As I said, Alliance have the exact same advantage with SP GY and their own cave.
You know, since you wanna talk about the map in an objective manner.
I’m talking about a scenario where the map will actually have any influence on the game, i.e when the teams are fairly closely matched.
Oh, so now having a closer spawn is not an advantage? What’s up with that?
You didn’t read like half my posts where I said that the alliance has the biggest advantages in defense? I literally mentioned SPGY before you even posted in this thread. Once again, I’m only saying the horde has the advantage in mid, not overall.
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*not a significant advantage, no.
In the end it’s all decided in the PvP, as simple as that.
The problem for the Alliance is that they almost never do.
No, the mid is fairly even, with Alliance even having a slight advantage with the bunker and archers closer to mid with a wider range (they’ve got more space between them so they cover a wider area).
The point where they struggle is IB GY, which has the exact same disadvantages for them as it does for the Horde at SP GY. It’s really dumb to be blaming the map for something that PvP decides the outcome of.
Yes, but my point wasn’t about significance, but rather about existence. I’m saying the advantage for horde in mid exists. Not that it’s significant or that it even has any influence in most games. EDIT: By mid I mean the GY’s nearest mid… and it’s dumb to not be able to discuss a part the map objectively. AGAIN, I mentioned SPGY before you even posted in this thread. Are you even serious at this point?
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And they’ve got a GY closer to the first clash. See, asymmetrical. One side gets an advantage in one way at one place, while the other side gets some other advantage in another way in another place. So on and so forth.
OK. You’re just not reading or understanding what I write.
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You’re just trying to pander to their narrative with the “distance to mid from caves” argument by saying the Horde has a map advantage, even though you’re saying it’s “only in mid”, and somehow trying to argue that the IB GY and Cave is somehow part of… mid? That doesn’t even make sense.
The mid is only the midfield. Cross the mid “bosses” (galv and balinda) and their places, you then cross over into the other faction’s side, where that faction has the advantage from the start. One that you, as the attacker, are always forced to overcome. Horde tends to do this better and always have been better at it ever since the “premade bootcamp” before the premade hotfixes came in.
The BG is decided with the PvP. As simple as that. The Horde needs to overcome the exact same disadvantage at SP GY, that Alliance has at IB GY. Yet one side never tends to fail. Meaning the asymmetrical design is irrelevant to the outcome of the BG in the end. The decisive factor is the PvP.
Whatever, let’s say the horde has advantage at first GY from mid, if that’s easier to understand…
You already agreed that IBGY is more defendable than SHGY. I already said that the BG is decided by PvP. I already said that SPGY is even more defendable. I agreed that skill/gear/talents and mindset are the biggest issue. Stop repeating yourself like a broken record.
Well, kind of. Not in a significant way though. Pushing up to SH GY without a GY nearby isn’t exactly easy either, however holding it after assaulting it tends to be a little simpler, because the Alliance never coordinate properly to push through with numbers and ability after ressing at SP GY, while the Horde are more just rushing straight after the ress to IB GY when IB GY is the one that’s assaulted. And keep in mind, that while SH GY is still being assaulted, if SF GY isn’t capped yet then the Horde ress at IB GY which is pretty far away as well. Yet that IWB choke hold doesn’t tend to break. Imagine that.
It’s the coordinated assault that has a higher chance of winning, yet they never use that to their advantage. The few times it has been tried way back when, they didn’t have the ability to win in the PvP, so they blamed the map instead and called it a day.
Also, you were talking about the “2 spirit healers”, even though that’s a pretty much irrelevant argument to make. If more than 10 Hordes are dying in a 30 sec window to even make use of both spirit healers, it indicates that the Alliance are pushing much greater numbers and showing a superior ability, which is enough to overcome such a thing 'til IB GY is capped.
The problem is the endemic mindset issues as well as them doing their own self-fulfilling prophecies that feeds their martyr complex.