You might assume from that dare i’m an alliance player, but while i do have 2 60 alliance, i’m definitely a horde main.
I do think the AV map is slightly horde favored, but i think the reason the alliance lose is because of the strategies they use, due to the que length.
I remember on the alliance chat the focus was always on making the game as fast as possible, win or lose. With very short ques it’s better honor/hour to lose quickly with a few objectives taken, than drag a game out. This is why back when premades existed if the horde wiped a premade twice they’d mostly give up. Sure with the advantage in co-ordination they could probably make a slow push through each graveyard and win in 35mins, but they’d rather just lose fast and crush 3 other pugs in that time. Just way more honor.
For alliance if you say 2.5 honor for winning a rush game in 10mins, 1.5k for losing a rush game to horde in 15mins, then 4k honor for winning a long game in an hour, then you cna pretty clearly see fighting it out for the win is rarely worth it.
For horde though if you have an hour long que, you have to add that onto your average game time, and suddenly your much better off squeezing a battleground for every ounce of honor you can get.
It should be really obvious that a max honor game strategy, will win more games than a fastest game possible strategy. If 10 of your players just give up because they want the game over asap, that is a big disadvantage they wouldn’t be solved by any map fix.
Something i’d point too, to back this theory up a little bit is the only games i’ve lost as horde in the past month have been to russian’s (even russian pugs)
The so called defeatist attitude was caused by months and months of losses caused by map imbalance.
It’s all in the initial stage of the game: horde can go all in trying to cap SHGY because even if Alliance manages to reach IBGY the cave spawn defense will easily overwhelm them, while if alliance loses SH is already a game lost.
This is why people most time sit at SH all game, they try to desperately prevent the moment the game goes in the toilet (loss of SHGY).
Often we cannot even push forward into the field of strife because horde will flank us behind balinda bunker and ninja cap without us even seeing it because of terrain.
The above however is not good enough, because SHGY spawns you in a cul de sac in waves of ten and eventually horde will pile up and zerg us out.
Map is so broken that anyone not placing a huge portion of the blame on it is completely missing the point.
I agree there is some map imbalance, but the fast games strategy has been there on alliance since day 1, and the max honor/game strategy kicked in for horde a few weeks after release when the que times shot up for them (on day 1 the horde actually had really fast ques)
The push for fast games has been there since day 1, it was there the second blizzard stopped premades. I mean after the premade nerf, alliance pugs tried to repeat those rush strategies for a few days, but the horde had been trained to defeat actual premades quite consistently by that point. Blocking pug rushes was riducilously easy.
Even after they gave up on that, it was always push for a fast game from alliance side.
Well if you can only win when the stars align, obviously you are going to develop a strategy to make the most of your miserable circumstances.
We don’t que up for AV with the intention of losing because winning is miles better both for honor and rep.
But we slam our faces against impossible odds every-single-game. Capping IBGY is hard, while losing SHGY is a blow you can never recover from.
We are damned if we do, damned if we don’t. This situation has lasted nearly a year. Imagine why morale is low and ppl don’t queue unless they are there for memes (like me) or are desperate for rep rewards.
For alliance, losing fast is better than winning slowly, in terms of honor. The actual cause for the defeatist attitude can be debated, but how come the Horde didn’t develop it during the 1-2 months of being crushed by premades in most games then?
Easy. Because the map is so broken that even vs premades horde only lost about 50% of the matches.
We face about 80%+ loss rate, and for over 6 months not just two. Plus we all know blizzard isn’t gonna do anything to fix this (unlike with premades).
Its still amuse me that the horde player even to this day thinks they win most AVs because they are superior even after the thousands of post that clearly shown the advantages wint concrete proofs. So maybe the horde players are truly “different” or maybe even “special” than the alliance ones, and Im not talking about pvp skill aspect.
Ok let’s switch then and if see if the 40 motivated horde after 1h30min queue will lose against the 20 Alliance that kinda care and 20 that don’t and just want the game to end ASAP with insta queue.
I mean horde win like 98% right now, it’s absurd to think some map tweaks is the reason for that. It’s obviously the queue and reward system where the faction with short queue rather lose than win slow while the faction with long queue rather win slow or lose slow than losing fast on a map that is designed for long games.
That’s a Straw Man claim. He did not say that and no one have.
My argument is this; the faction with short queue rather lose than win slow while the faction with long queue rather win slow or lose slow than losing fast on a map that is designed for long games.
If you switch side it would be even easier for horde to defend and break alliance that don’t want long games. I have been in many games against Russian premades where they push like crazy but after 30min go afk and let us win because it’s just not worth it, we never cap SH GY in those games until they let us and all we did was defending SF GY so Alliance actually spawned closer than us at SH GY.
If alliance want to win over horde you need to be ready for 1h-2h games every time. Because that is how AV is designed. A long slow battle. You even needed to wait for 2h to have a boss spawn In middle for a quest in earlier versions. Horde don’t mind that with 1h-2h queue but that would REALLY suck for alliance with insta queue. So most stop trying after a little while. There is your reason.
I agree, one week would not be enough. But if the balance would be restored slowly the meta would follow and alliance would go back to treating the BG as a legitimate source of honor, as well as fun game play.
You are making a strawman yourself by claiming half of the alliance is AFK by default.
Yes sure the q times are the reason. then tell me other bg why arent like this? Does WSG/AB it magically become a 1hr q for the alliance so they want to win or that because of that? No its still as quick as any other bg and still they win a lot more. And you know why? Because there is no another great imbalance that they have to beat other than the op horde racials.
i’m in favor… hell, make it a month just to hammer the lesson home.
getting really tired of alliance posters saying “ITS TUH MAP”.
i think, deep inside, they already know switching the bases around won’t do anything to change their terrible win rate, but they’ll never admit it.
even if this happened, they would simply find another goalpost to move to.
some examples: Horde Racials, Shaman vs. Paladin, Horde NPC’s stronger, Wolves > Rams.
But they will NEVER admit that its because their faction is demoralized due to afkers, fishers and rep farmers.
You are so wrong, I believe alliance would queue in droves for the opportunity of returning you the favor and farming you at the cave until the forum are filled with horde tears.
Map imbalance came first, defeatist attitude came later. You are free to think otherwise, but you are dead wrong. I mean what other proof you need when the average horde pug can stall premades for over 30 minutes, until they give up and queue for the next game (because they are not stupid):
I bet this 30 minute stall happens either at the IB choke or Drek Tar keep. Am i right @bodiesan?
This thread is just another echo so I won’t bother with that, but just to clarify this:
The defeatist attitude started in the WPvP phase. Then the BGs were hurried out because of all the whining by PvE Alliance players.
So no, the defeatist attitude was deeply rooted even before BGs came into the picture.
You are making a strawman yourself by claiming half of the alliance is AFK by default.
you act as if this isn’t true lmao. you’re basically telling him “you’re making a straw man by assuming water is wet”.
this is pretty common knowledge by now, and saying the alliance doesn’t suffer from up to 20+ afkers each AV would be like saying water is not wet. the only exception to this rule are the organized russian premades.
I am just waiting for tbc and when you get put a mile down the valley as your starting point and move your res zone also , for horde to start crying they can’t win 99% of the time #boycott av
50% wins as premades? For trade chat pug crap/nub premades maybe… I guess you never played on the horde side of it. If it was 50% it wouldn’t have caused nearly such a flood of salt on these forums. This statement alone is enough for anyone to disregard everything you have to say on this topic…
For 6 months NOW, yes, but how was it after 2 months? Not much better was it? Sure we can compare it if we’re not being stupid about it.
