Ok, then answer me this mr. Didwellinschool:
Horde gets to the middle of the map half a minute before the alliance. That means that the game always starts with Horde attacking SH. How is that not imbalanced? Horde gets a big headstart.
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I’ve seen the video… Yeah, that’s the imbalance of the map. Come on, do you really think reaching mid first is enough to cause such a huge difference in win rate? Also, you might want to read my previous comment to Bodiesan, since I already brought this up…
It is not the first to mid or first clash that counts because both factions can wait to group up near shgy or ibgy to make the first fight to their own advantage horde have slight advantage reaching snowfall first but that is not game breaking.
It is attacking and defending ibgy and shgy once it’s been soft capped creates the imbalanced map.
30 second advantage on a 100% mount is massive it takes 58 seconds for allience to reach shgy to recap. while it takes 28 seconds for horde to reach ibgy to recap which gives horde a whole extra Gy respawn and time to drink/eat to full between attacks add that 20 can respawn In the cave Vs 10 on gy ontop of their advantage.
To top it all off shgy is the perfect funnel choke on high ground which can easily be defended compare to ibgy which is widely open good luck trying to aoe down advancing horde there.
Allience trying to defend shgy is terrible because we respawn inside a choke and the flag cannot be defended well as there is multiple directions of attack there is no choke for us defending.
Horde defending ibgy there is a choke for allience entering near the tower the only way in so horde can defend the flag quite easily and because it’s on a hill they are not trapped and can easily jump off the back of the graveyard to flank Allience or run towards shgy.
Snowfall is easier for allience to cap as it’s closer to our graveyard but it gives us no tactical advantage as it is not close to ibgy at all it only gives us another Gy to try to defend but horde taking snowfall it gives the horde a respawn close to shgy so gives horde a tactical spawn to take shgy if Allience decide to turtle there.
Nobody in there right mind can say none of this effects win rate and has no effect on the outcome of matches.
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Oh my god, enough with the soft positional bargaining.
@Tartanangel nice echo, you might want to try saying something that hasn’t been covered and countered before.
Nice comeback beware I have never seen you any horde address these arguments and actually countered them the only reply horde say it’s all due to mindset or blame the players even though that is a variable and an excuse because both sides will have good players and bad players. you can’t blame the afkers since blizzard have been cracking down on their bans. Oh and you say it’s based on PvP well other maps are based on PvP and they do not have 95% win for one faction. It just boggles my mind why you don’t think it is the map you just cannot look at the map objectively and instead blame the players.
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No, of course it’s not one thing. How stupid do you have to be to think that this is about one thing? It’s about many things, many advantages piling up resulting in a crushing advantage.
But once you accept that reaching mid way before alliance is a clear advantage then we can look at the next imbalance and that is the spawn cave at IBGY which is just ridiculous. This is another clear advantage.
The fact is that Blizzard changed a working BG in 1.8 and they had to make sweeping changes in like 2.1 to make up for these big mistakes. One of the things they did was to move the Horde GY back by quite a bit. And then AV got a lot more balanced in terms of winrate.
I mean the evidence is documented. If you choose to deny it that’s up to you.
End of discussion.
And of course momentum exists. If you are winning in sports you’re likely to keep on winning. But many studies have been made about momentum and it’s actually not as big a deal as many of the people in this thread is making it up to be. Momentum is like 5%. The human brain thinks it’s way more.
Of course not. They just have a 90%+ win rate for specific players. Imagine that.
That just shows how you haven’t been around on these forums very long, and is just another echo.
First they changed the entire way AV works, by removing all elites and reducing the time it takes for towers/bunkers to burn once assaulted, implemented resources in 2.3.0, and made it so players don’t resurrect in the starting caves until all of their faction’s graveyards have been captured.
As well as other things, some of which are in Classic’s AV already.
Then in patch 2.4.0 they moved the Horde cave further south, because it wasn’t about the PvP in this AV. It was about the resources, and distance to towers/bunkers actually mattered then when there were no elites slowing assaults down.
So no, you’re completely wrong about that one @Neym .
… Win rates? From back then? Uhm no, that isn’t documented anywhere.
Yep I agree, end of discussion.
I have been on the forums long enough to see what the horde arguments to why we lose which has very little to do with the map and complete nonsense.
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It’s the players fault defeatist attitude (Both factions have bad good players each game has different pool of players probably the most moronic arguement here)
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It’s PvP that decides it. ( Funny how it’s only one map that has such a huge win rate for one faction compared to the other two bad argument)
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Russians win more than eu /us ( they still premade so ofc if you compare pug to premade the premades win more often doesn’t change the fact that the map is imbalanced bad arguement)
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Asia win more than eu/us. ( they don’t turtle and still play rush games so they don’t use the advantages at shgy and ibgy to win bad argument)
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You have the bridge. ( the first point that Allience do infact have a advantage to defend but our cave respawn stops us from spawning at the correct side to defend they cannot come back because shgy is strongest defensive point in map. You cannot turtle there for long as you can summon Lok which cannot be prevented which breaks that defensive point)
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Bunkers (double edged it is harder for horde to cap the bunkers this is true but our mid bunkers are so terrible positioned that our archers cannot reach horde at all while same cant be said for towers. This does not win games bad arguement)
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We queue longer so we are more determined. ( rubbish arguement queue length is nothing to do with skill of players same could be argued that you have waited so long in a queue you are less focused than someone who joined fresh. If you wait 2 hours in queue you might not have much time left to play as well.)
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its bad hph for allience to win ( for extremely long games this maybe true but if the map was balanced it wouldn’t be such a long game as it would be based on who won the PvP fight horde wouldn’t be able to defend ibgy/shgy forever)
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Rankers for allience left ( being a ranker doesn’t mean your skilled at PvP it doesn’t even mean your better geared they left because map was unfair so obviously it’s hard to get good honor there)
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Allience won in vanilla ( true but all games back then where rush games such a bad argument as the meta wasn’t found out until later and Allience seem to win rush games more often than horde)
I have probably missed some more but none of these arguments even touch on the problems why Allience lose all the games and why the horde queue is so long.
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Are you aware that horde started to win when horde started to defend hard? Horde win 98% of all games by defending, not by reaching middle first. In fact many pugs push horde back at first and have way more HKs but they break (break = people stop trying and go semi afk) when horde defend because it’s not worth it To win if it takes to long.
No, those are actually fairly recent arguments. You haven’t been around when the actual points on the map were covered in full. Go back and read past AV threads for that, enjoy. Enough with the echoing.
PS:
Your own tries to counter those arguments you brought up are truly dumb.
Oh you mean way back when Allience where premading and the horde where complaining everywhere on forums that it is unfair and the Allience where telling the horde it’s because of their defeatist attitude is the reason why they lost and to get gud?
Both premading and the map imbalance are both major issues with alterac valley only one has been addressed.
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No, I mean threads from December all the way to May. Go check them out. You’ve clearly missed a lot of them.
From my personal AV experience, Horde started to win when they cried loud enough for Blizzard to change the game in their favor.
These threads will never lead to any change. Blizzard doesn’t even read the EU forums. All you are doing is feeding Horde players that are waiting for their AV queue to pop. They queue AV because faction imbalance is the exact reason they chose to play Horde in the first place. They also have people pretending to be Alliance agreeing with them in here, but those pretenders always seem to be posting from a lvl 120 retail character, cause if they switched to their Classic character we’d see they are actually Horde players.
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I have been on the forums way back then and I never saw one post by the horde explaining why the map is balanced you can’t even address any point I made instead just called it an echo great agrument what’s your next arguement get gud. You must have thought premading in AV was fair as well.
Oh and I saw your joke of a post saying people shouldn’t be able to queue they should make it like raids where you had to find 40 players to premade AV good luck on finding 40 Allience willing to premade against 40 horde on a map that gives them a huge advantage and a great way to treat majority of the playerbase.
Oh, my bad.
It seems it’s a memory issue for you. Sorry, grandpa.
What have been changed that favors horde? The only real chnage they made to AV was closing the backdoor that favors Alliance.
Yes they can if you can point it an exploit that needs to be fixed.
The factions are almost exatly 50/50 balanced dude.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/614081264751738920/755729396412842004/unknown.png
Personally Im playing on Earthshaker where Alliance outnumber Horde. Alliance are the better PvE and PvP faction. Alliance dominate PvE and organized PvP in Classic, that’s why most hardcore players choose alliance.
Are you honestly wanting to make actual changes that is not based on unintended exploit in a recreation of game?
Yeah studies have shown “momentum” and psychological issues when it comes to performing plays way less part in the outcome than what people are thinking it does.
Psychology plays a part, but you’re thinking it turns the tide of battle and is the sole reason Horde wins and that is utter nonsense. I’ve been in countless AVs where Alliance were pumped up and motivated by leaders and moved together as a team but it’s just not enough because of the glaring map imbalances that only someone who has the strategic equivalence of color blindness can’t see.
How good are you at chess? You must have some deficiency where you just can’t see what most can.
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Why are people like always making dishonest Straw Man arguments?
I have talked about the reward and queue system. How it’s not worth it to win a slow game for the faction with a short queue. It’s math, not psychology.
You’re conflating momentum and research done with athletes, to a mindset issue spread via social media where it has already been proven people are hypersensitive, which is part of what makes social media so incredibly lucrative.
They’re not the same thing.
Sports psychology =/= sociology.
In simpler terms, you’re affected in a very different way by “infectious ideas” as it’s called, when it’s on social media, compared to in sports on an individual level which is the research you’re referencing.
Yeah you don’t know what a straw man is.