I just saw a Orc Warrior with Spinal Reaper

Its great people are blasting through the game so fast.

By the time layering is removed all the gogogo’ers will be lvl 60, have blasted through endgame, are bored out of their skull and will relocate to their pirate servers or Retail.

It 'll be great to be able to level up with somewhat normal amounts of other players around.

Layering working as intended? :smiling_imp:

Hot take my guy

Whether patch 1.3/4/5/6/7/8/9/10/12, MC and Onyxia would still be dead as door nails before the first month’s up. Vanilla was easy, classic is easy. If you want challenging end game PVE content, then Vanilla/Classic is not where you’re going to get it.

Blows my mind how there are still so many people that think Vanilla was difficult. It was never difficult. It was grindy, and you were just bad at the game, just like everyone else was.

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To point out just how many developments have been made since vanilla. Another example is dual wield tanking, proper utilization of nightfall/annihilator, etc.

You even have things like the powershifting playstyle allowing feral druids to not be complete garbage (though still not great), that hadn’t even been conceptualized back then.

Of course. It’s the time it did take that’s the problem, because it was too fast than what the numbers would’ve allowed if not for the layering exploits and the 1.12 patch changes.

How does “layer exploit dungeons” get you tons of gold?

Again, enforced need. There wasn’t any need for them to do such things on the side back then.

You can farm a specific boss of a dungeon to get rare patterns, epics to sell for gold and so on.

You’re arguing against yourself mate. On one hand you’re saying game theory hasn’t developed, on the other hand you’re saying it’s developed because it had to to allow speedruns and such.

Nope. That isn’t what I said. I said it’s the speedrunning goal that led to other needs being explored.

And yet that’s development, isn’t it?

The rare pattern part might be a thing, but I wouldn’t say people vendoring items for 4 gold a pop per boss is significant

In areas there was never a need for earlier, sure. Doesn’t mean what they did come up with because there was a need for it was any less true though.

Except they don’t have to do the rest of the run, they can essentially force-respawn a boss while they stand in the room.

Sure, but it’s still development, and it still broadens what we know about the game. That’s how you often end up finding better ways to do things. Sometimes even ways better than the original. That’s how random new metas pop up in games.

Aand again back to the generalization. You’re obfuscating the points I’m making with irrelevant things, yet similar enough to be useful for obfuscating. You realise that, right?

I don’t know if you did Naxx back in vanilla but MC was never as hard as that.

There is also no MUST. It might make the game more fun for you, and I can’t disagree with you on that. That’d also why I pointed out that my preference would have been a true authentic complete patch progression so people could experience what it was like. The hardcore ms would still steamroll though :slight_smile:

Or you’re simply losing track of my argument. That being that there was clearly development to the game theory and metagame over the last 15 years. Even for the few that excelled. Thinking otherwise is a very harsh assumption of “we’ve reached the apex of game theory 15 years ago for the game”, and that’s a seriously shaky assumption.

And let’s be fair, APES was nowhere back then. There was no organised effort back then to speedrun the entire content.

So with that out of the way, thinking that it’s definitely the game that got this much easier, not us that got better and our tools, is also an assumption, a fairly shaky one considering how much has changed.

That’s again generalizing too much, and not what I claimed. I claimed that people reached where they needed to reach in the game as it was back then, and weren’t literally apes who barely knew how to open doors.

You have a bad habit to obfuscate.

having progressive patches would be even worse, as that would bring a host of problems that were solved.

Like PvP class balance that was horrible in 1.3 and somewhat decent in 1.12 (not great, not terrible :stuck_out_tongue: )

It is much easier(and better) to make simple function as; increase DPS/HP by X percentage than reworking 9 cycles of patches.

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