I no longer see WoW as a game with a story

Yeah, you might dislike it. But that still doesn’t deny the fact that Japanese media, despite the language barrier is pretty much going for a cultural victory (if we were playing civ) compared to US.

In 2019 the entire US comic book sales were a mere 10% of the sales of one manga series Demon Slayer.

Though as for personal recommendation. Full Metal Alchemist is a safe bet as an Anime (Though a bit messy since the 2nd adaptation and manga canon rushes through the emotional moments of the first part. So kinda have to watch the first half of the first adaptation).

Also heard that Vinland Saga is a quite faithful adaptation of Norse stories and culture.

I’ve seen awesome stuff this year. I don’t know what you’re watching…

Last of Us.
House of the Dragon.
Shrinking
Gen V
Florida Man
Only Murders in the Building

That’s just a small selection. All excellent series in their own right imo.
I could add a bunch more to these lists.

And then there’s more ‘simple’ stuff like:

Reacher.
Fubar.
Daryl Dixon.

Stuff like that. Also enjoyed those. And there’s probably loads that I’m forgetting about now from the top of my head.

I get it, it’s all subjective, but I see in particular television series as WAY WAY WAY better than they have been in the past.

Never has been. I dont get why all the hysteria now.

Because there are more mmos now that show that mmos can have good stories (not only ffxiv).

Yet wow being the top-dog mmo is still stuck with a bad main story.

Not just that. Look at heavy hitters like Spider-man, Bat-man, X-men. They used to sell in the hundrets of thousands, now they are barely selling in the tens of thousands, and then we have comic book runs like Ms.Marvel/Captain Marvel which have had several reboots after ~10 issues per run and sometimes selling only hundrets of issues (I think it was Captain marvel that sold ~800).

Not really, no. It’s not bad per say but it’s pretty blatantly “japanese people pretending they are norse”.

I only liked these two (also HotD was 2022). I also really loved Arcane and Tulsa King. Mike Flanagan produces ok to good horror mini series almost on an yearly basis as well. But my point is that we used to get more than 1 maybe 2 good shows per year. I mean take “The Rings of cringe” for example, it had the potential to be great but it was downright abysmal. The Witcher series is another example, it could have been near GoT levels but it was abysmal.

WDYM bro? FF14 is huge sotry based mmo. The story is for kindergarden too tho. It is whole anime power of friendship from start to finish. I liked it. Yet somehow when WoW does the same kind of story, same people who prais FF14 bash it down. So again, what exactly do you mean?

FF does NOT have good story though, as far as I’m concerned.


See that’s all this thing is… People being butthurt because they don’t like the current themes. Well… Too bad. Wait for the next expansion and see if that’s to your liking. I don’t like FF’s themes and aesthetic, so guess what? I’m not playing it. Stop spreading falsehoods on the forums comparing it with ludicrous stuff.

(that last bit isn’t targeted at you specifically Livia; that’s a general statement).

Read again what i wrote, think you missed a word.

Yet it is one of the top JRPG made now.

Sure. That doesn’t make the story good objectively speaking, though.
There are many succesful games without good story.

But the most important thing is: It’s subjective.
So it’s fine if you like it. That’s cool for you.
It’s fine if I don’t like it. I’ll just stay away (the story isn’t the only thing about that game that doesn’t appeal to me; the aesthetic and designs and such are also incredibly ugly to me).

Have you seen that new Love is In the Air transmog set?
That reminded me of FF designs.
And I hate it. I’ve never hated a set as much as that one.
I’m really hoping stuff like that isn’t going to become a regular thing in WoW.

I would like to point out that Vanilla WoW had basically no story either. Meanwhile TBC just threw Vashj, Kael and Illidan under the bus just for having someone to kill.

The only times where it really felt that story was the main attraction of the game were Wrath (the sequel to WC3 frozen throne) and Legion (the culmination of the Burning Legion saga) with their single focus on one threat

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Big true.

And the multi expansion storyline of the redemption, then fall, then redemption, then fall of Garrosh. In a way that is their proto ‘saga’.

I struggle with the story for 3 reasons, I think.

1. The presentation and characterization of themes and characters.
2. The quality relative to the quantity of stories told.
3. The narrative focus and pacing.

I’ll just go through them one by one, because why not?

1. The presentation and characterization of themes and characters.

I feel like Blizzard doesn’t really stay true to its own source material.

When Blizzard first introduces dragons in Warcraft they are typical fantasy dragons. It’s Richard A. Knaak who is tasked with fleshing out the dragon lore in his War of the Ancients book trilogy, and he basically writes them as these mythical beings with great powers that don’t really bother with mortal affairs, and who have a way of life that is both animalistic and God-like.
For a good while Blizzard sticks to this presentation. When Arthas comes upon Sapphiron in Warcraft III he’s a dragon through and through. He doesn’t consider Arthas to be more than a nuisance, because he’s the dragons.
In Vanilla WoW the dragons are a relatively rare occurrence, often found in caves and near mountains. There’s little interaction with them, they mostly remain mysterious and secretive. The ones that are more prominent in their appearance use disguises, like Onyxia and Nefarian.
In the Swamp of Sorrows there’s a little cave with some green whelpings and an NPC in some green clothes who offers a discreet quest. He doesn’t say he’s a dragon, but you suspect it.
So Blizzard really tries to maintain this presentation of dragons that’s true to the original lore. They are mysterious, powerful, wise, animals, secretive, and distanced from mortals. They lay eggs and live in caves and spew fire and fly around. And they’re old and magical and powerful and wise. All of that.

Fast-forward to Dragonflight and it’s completely different.
The player character is basically best-friends with all the Aspects!
The dragons have entire societies that replicate human societies. They have inns, daycares, banks, administrative buildings, roads, gardens, and so on.
They have jobs and tasks and behaviors that all appear very human. They look like humans most of the time as well.
They talk and interact with each other as humans.
They are plentiful, they share everything, they talk at an eye-level, and they convey emotion and humor that is human.

This is also true for the individual dragon and their characterization.
There’s a stark difference between the character of Deathwing & Korialstrasz and how they are presented as dragons, relative to Chromie and Kalecgos.

This shift – which is a massive shift in presentation and characterization – is difficult to adjust to, especially because it erases most of the old in favor of the new. And as an oldschool Warcraft nerd, it’s hard to see the case for why the new is better.
And even if one is to accept the new, it’s difficult considering how abrupt most of the changes appear. There’s no smooth transition that helps connect the old with the new.
War of the Ancients and Dragonflight may as well be two completely different stories, because they are so unlike each other in terms of presentation and characterization of dragons.

2. The quality relative to the quantity of stories told.

It feels like something Blizzard have strived toward for WoW recently, is to deliver more content to players more frequently. It’s a Live Service game, so volume of stuff matters.
That appears to have the consequence that Blizzard focuses more on having a lot of quests and a lot of stories, with less focus on the quality of the stories being told.

Some of the best story writing Blizzard have done is for Diablo II.
That game has a total of 18 quests and 4 cinematics and the game manages to tell just as epic and grand a story with just as much journey, exploration and adventure as any WoW expansion.

A typical WoW expansion has more than 1000 quests!
The Azure Span in Dragonflight has quests for the Tuskarr, the Gnolls, the Furlbogs, the Blue Dragons, The Kirin Tor, Nesingwary, the Archaeology expedition, and so on.
And it’s all a myriad of NPCs and text boxes and objectives and more NPCs and more text boxes and more objectives. And it just piles on and on and on.

Volume. It’s all about volume.

What’s Warcraft III? There’s 3 campaigns and they tell 1 story each. Thrall and the Orcs, Arthas and the Humans, and Tyrande and the Night Elves.

The game adheres to one of Blizzard’s core design philosophies, which is concentrated coolness. We don’t spend a lot of time dealing with the story of the people of Stratholme. Arthas just goes in and kills them. The story keeps a laser focus on Arthas and his personal journey. We don’t get an expansion-long story about Arthas’ invasion of Quel’thalas. No, he just plows through to The Sunwell and moves on, because it’s about Arthas.

In Diablo II there’s enough story to make the whole game about Khanduras (act I) alone, but that wouldn’t really get the plot moving forward. So instead the game focuses on the major story beats and covers all the ground it needs to in 6 quests.
By comparison, then Diablo IV has dozens of main story quests in each zone, as well as ~50 side quests, totaling 300-400 quests in total. But the story isn’t any better because of it.

It’s just volume.

But it’s more important that Blizzard delivers a good story than a lot of story.

They seem to have forgotten that.

WoW would be much better off, in my opinion, if it shaved off 50% of its quests and emphasized the premium main campaign more.
Like Warcraft III. Like Diablo II.
This quantity over quality approach perhaps works adequately for gameplay content, but it works terribly for story content.

3. The narrative focus and pacing.

WoW has 3 major story beats it needs to cover if Blizzard wants to get a final story resolution and land the universe somewhere equivalent to the StarCraft universe after the events of Legacy of the Void. And that’s surely where Blizzard wants WoW to land, because then you can start to talk about next-gen and WoW 2 and all that.

There’s Azeroth and The Titans. That’s coming. That’s probably ~5 years.
There’s Light versus Void. That will come (by Metzen’s admission). Let’s say that’s dealt with in 2 expansions, so ~3 years.
And then finally there has to be the conclusion, the big baddie The Jailer mentioned, The First Ones or whatever the grand reveal is, like the Xel’naga and Amon in StarCraft II. Let’s say Blizzard covers this in a standard expansion, so ~2 years.

That’s ~10 years!

That’s insane. That’s 10 years just to wrap the major story beats up that Blizzard have already spent 19 years on!

It does not respect the player’s time when Blizzard advances their own narrative at such a slow pace.

We’ll see if The World Soul Saga is any better, but so far Dragonflight spends way too much story time, on way too many stories, in way too many quests, without advancing the narrative very much.
It’s long-drawn, it’s convoluted, and it’s inconclusive. And as a player it’s very hard to maintain your interest when you spend so much time and get so little narrative satisfaction out of it.
Other games cover way more ground way faster and in a way more satisfying manner. It is disrespectful that Blizzard expects players to hang around for upwards of 30 years just to figure out the conclusion to that narrative they began in Uldaman or Un’goro or Silithus or where ever.

Yeah, that’s it. Felt like emptying my brain a bit on the matter. There’s plenty of story in WoW. I would summarize my criticism by saying that Blizzard were better storytellers in the past than they are today. They seem less focused on telling good stories and more obsessed with shoveling content down the throats of their paying customers, quality be damned.

Their story of Garrosh along with how Sylvanas was from Cataclysm and after, felt like amateur fanfiction to me

It’s not the presence of emotional moments that is being criticised so much as the flavour - it’s the same trite ‘power of friendship’ and ‘we must forgive our enemies’ that has come to infest many fantasy settings at the expense of racial, regional and factional lore.

I have more of an emotional connection to individual races within the setting that I find appealing and interesting, so I certainly don’t want to see them all forced to conform to modern day real world ideals of human morality.

I also think that players should also be left to come to their own conclusions and have more agency with how their character reacts to the world and characters within it.

As a gay guy, I’m also increasingly rolling my eyes at how often male characters are being sidelined recently. Malfurion is heavily connected to the Emerald Dream and is obnoxiously absent for contrived reasons.

It gets worse when you look at how often a male character is unceremoniously killed off but excuses are made to redeem and keep the likes of Vanessa, Vereesa, Alleria, Jaina and Sylvanas around despite there being quite a lot of innocent blood staining their hands that has never truly been paid for.

Hopefully Metzen returning brings a bit more testosterone back to the story again…

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Exactly!

Emotions are not the problem per se, the cheesy presentation and dumbing down are

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Yes let’s remove the and go back to endless needless slaughter

Imma be honest WOW’s story didnt matter to me all that much after WOTLK and they completwly killed it with SL. We need WC4 i think, for the sotry to matter again…

Maybe WS Saga will make it good. I doubt it though.

the problem with japanese stuff is there are a few good ones among them. But if you look at animes alot of them seem to be copying eachother and end up feeling like some generic fanfic. Theres only a few wich are really great

But animes probably are easier to adapt because they often are based on work material from amateurs and not some BIG existing ip.

That’s called genres, themes, tropes and references. You see it in all art really.

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