The last time I ended up with a good bear in my m+ was before Dragonflight so I think he has a point. The “best” one I had didn’t use defensives, got clapped by the second boss in Uldaman, died with 2 stacks of frenzied regen up and asked me where my heals were…
DF even had a season (s2) where bear was OP.
Don’t spread nonsense.
Every tank which isnt using defensives falls over. That isn’t a bear-special.
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Oh I know, s2 was the worst - bear was OP and extremely FOTM and all (and please take this in the most literal sense) ALL of the bears I played with during s2 were bad tanks.
I’m not saying bear tanks are bad I’m saying the people who play them usually are.
In the meantime i timed up to +26 with a bear 
Bear isn’t bad at all.
Currently i time 12’s with the bear.
Stop spreading pro-meta stuff.
In DF bear was so bad i basically never had tanked that i timed up to +20’s myself on bear in s3, when it wasn’t OP anymore. And i am bad. Really bad.
That video in this topic is about a +6.
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I guess your talking about WoW lite? Guild Wars2? Na I was talking about the proper Guild Wars 
the first one.
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I can confirm this. It was a +6 and I was bear. Bear is fine, issue is noob.
Invite bear, don’t invite noob.
[Battle-Scarred Veteran]
Requires Warrior
When your health is brought below 30%, you take 80% less damage for 8 sec and healing you receive is increased by 100%.
Cannot occur more than once every 3 min.
If a tank dies and no one see. Is the tank truly dead 
I am sorry Uda but this shows how little you know about how routes are made.
Every pull is part of the route how many mobs what those mobs are, are they linked to other mobs, are they possible to add in with other mobs.
So here you are literally wrong how many packs you pull in the first corridor in stonevault is literally part of routing.
The difference is that when the tank get the experience by going outside of their comfort zone it is a team wipe most of the time and often bricked keys.
How can you say this while at the same time not know what a route is?
You can know if you ask for the route the tank is going to run.
The ONLY job that is unique for the heal role is to make sure everyone is alive no matter what happens.
And even that is disputed with how many self healing buttons every class have and how many defensive buttons they have.
Infact if we boil down the healer role like you are doing here to the tank role there is nothing unique about the healer role.
Because tanks are busted as hell, so mobs are unable to even hurt tanks once their rotation is going.
Meanwhile they’ll 1-shot anybody else.
The more powerful they make tanks, the more important they get. The more important they get, the greater their responsibility. The more responsibility they have, the harder the group gets punished when they fail, and the more ways they have to fail.
And the more of all of that, the more pressure they feel, and the more pressure they feel, the more sensitive they are to being berated or flamed, and the worse they feel, and the fewer we have.
This situation is really problematic and the remedy is an extremely unobvious one that sounds so terrible… this is not a good situation.
Compare that to BH in DF. You could go straight and take the pack in-front with a patrol and an extra pull.
OR…
You could turn Left into the beach area and take a double pull there.
Two different pulls. Two different choice of packs. One option has an elite caster. The other option dosent. And it affects which cages you open, and which you don’t (and how).
Also, after the 1st boss in BH you could instead of taking the path to the right with the trees, take the path to the left. Why not?
That is the ROUTE. The direction you take. That is Step #1. THEN step #2 is to decide if you do double or single packs in that route.
Step#1 is the job of the tank 100%. And not only that, its is a UNIQUE job of the tank. There is no equivalent for any roll.
Step#2 on the other hand depends on the tank “experience” surviving it. And CDs of the party. That is also the job of the tank (never denied it). But in contrast to Step#1 this job is not unique to tanks. Healers and DDs also have to keep an eye on the party CDs and react accordingly. Just as the tank they need to know what are the things to kick, to avoid, to heal, to pop a CD/defensive… Just like the tank.
Healer experience is equally consequential. And if 1 DD dies its also consequential. Except that the wipe is usually 20s after the death.
So TLDR:
I am not denying that tanks have some responsibility on their shoulders. What I am denying is that when the dungeons are tough, its tough on the whole party. Not just tanks.
And this discussion about how DPS have it easy (when they dont) and how tanks/healers are special snowflakes that deserve pampering is something I disagree with.
First because it promotes a false narrative that turns players away from even trying.
Second because it distracts us from the real problem: Dungeons are incredibly tough and unforgiving to the whole party. Not just tanks. And that is bad. Really bad.
I want to put very special emphasis here. Because even if Blizzard buffed tanks by 200% tomorrow and made them immortal gods that can solo the whole dungeon… It still would not change a thing, because the 15s affix is still there. The gile on +12 is still there. The tyr+fort at +10 is still there… and the generally AoE heavy damage in dungeons is still there…
And third: The problem with tanks is that you got a massive tank-buster every 15/20s. The frequency is too much. Which is what makes tanks so squishy, which is a great contrast to what blizzards intentions were at the beginning: Make tank damage more spread out and less spiky. And the result is that its as spiky as in DF, with a much greater frequency.
THAT is a big issue to solve. Routing in the current dungeon pool is a non-issue compared to that.
Correct. Because dungeons are a TEAM effort. That is what I have been saying from the very beginning.
DD/Tank survivability is not only in the healers hands. Tank specifically can (and does) get externals from DDs, dispels from DDs, freedoms from DDs, kicks to casters in Narnia to help out the tank… ect…
Its a TEAM effort.
And as I said on the previous comment, as long as we keep promoting this “us vs. them” narrative nobody here will see that obvious fact.
First and foremost the DDs, which genuinly beleive that DD roll is easy with zero responsibility… that its a separate roll and they can exist just by kicking things and exploding the recount. NO. Its more than that.
Because in a TEAM everyone is responsible. Not just the tank.
Which is all nice and dandy till the first problems hit. The tank can make a good calculated pull and some rando dps will die due to not interrupting something or not getting out of a 
. You honestly think they will just admit “yeah sry guys. My fault completely”.
Ofc not. It will be either - omgez where is healz?! or Omgez noob tank pull.
DPS rarely if ever get called out for their mistakes but if a tank or healer makes a hiccup…o boy. They will make sure that even your unborn grandchildren knows about it 
Edit:
Nah. Pug handbook rule 1: “If something goes wrong. Always blame and be toxic towards the tank or healer”.
I dont agree with this. I have witnessed more DDs getting roasted than healers/tanks. Beleive me.
And much worse too. And even for stupid things. One my buddies when he played Arcane mage was getting constantly whispered for his “sucky” DPS on the recount. Even though the has #1 in kicks (being a mage is impressive)… and he had a priority damage build.
So his boss damage and key mob damage was out the roof… but he did not have a “divine storm” to AoE small little mobs, and you could see it with a -10/20% overall on the recount.
And these roasts happened even if we timed the key. Its not even for a mistake !
That is DD life 101. Getting roasted for everything. That is what I witness on my every-day pug life. Where I have do de-escalate people roasting the DDs all the time.
I will always deny this. Because I fail to see it. And I got enough keys behind my back to have a representative idea.
I am not special. I am not the “best”. I learn by failing (so I fail a TON).
And you are welcome to see my Raider IO and see my completion rates. If you want to see an absolutely horrendous record of failures.
CoT I had to learn from scratch by bricking like 20 to 30 keys there. By failing healer checks on every boss basically. Until I got the hang of it.
As I said. I am not a special snowflake. Neither are my healer/tank friends. Across all levels of play.
None of us sees this.
So did I. But the few pugs I tanked for…lets just say it wasn’t pretty and leave it at that.
Now I got a strict policy of absolutely no tanking for rando pugs. Only friends/guildies/community. Let them whine on the forums on how they “need to wait 1h to get a tank or healer to queue” while I will sit back and eat some 
.
Only pug(when I have to) on dps characters these days.
The dps are easy to get away IF they do good numbers. They could be ignoring all casts and mechanics and well…most people wont bat an eye. If anything I got blamed for not “interrupting” enough on my protadin while neither of the 3 dps(2 being shammies with their fast kicks) havent used a single kick in the entire dungeon. And in before somebody screams “well you are a protadin, interrupt machine!” - cant interrupt absolutely every cast and why should I be doing all the 100% interrupts while the dps one’s are gathering dust? Oh I am sorry “muh DPS metters” right?
The thing is with tanks if you are not “near dead” it means you are not pulling big enough. There is always the pressure to do bigger pulls.
Also with DPS if you mess up your rotation or CDs, you would do less DPS and probably no one will notice if you are doing 2M DPS instead of 2.2M DPS in one pull. With tanks a small mistake (such as mismanaging CDs or resources) can turn a very safe pull into a pull where tank goes from 100% hp to 0% instantly. For example as a bear, I always keep at least 2 stacks of iron fur up (and to be fair it doesn’t require much skill to do that). But if I make a mistake and let iron fur fall off, I die almost instantly (which is a rare occurrence but it can happen due to factors such as lag, being tired or being distracted, or whatever). It also happens at the start of a pull, which is why I have to use a CD on every pull and it’s a problem when someone ninja pulls with my CDs not ready. The healer wouldn’t have time to react and save me in that case.
True. But AOE stops have been nerfed in this TWW. Players of all skill levels ranging from top rated streamers pushing 17+ to players doing 4+ have complained about this. I hope Blizzard listens.
Another solution is to make tanks have more passive baseline defensives and nerf their active defensives, so that a mistake by the tank is not as impactful as it is now. In the case of bears for example, if my baseline armor is higher and iron fur gives less armor (so that the overall mitigation is the same), a mistake by me means that I take more damage instead of instantly dying and the healer would time to react and save me.
Well that’s your choice. You got a few runs with douches in them. For the record, those people would have used any excuse to flame you. Dosent matter what roll you played.
But “a few pugs” is, in my opinion, insufficient to categorically say that “tanks always get flamed”.
Well I disagree. Good numbers for a DD is equivalent to good HPS numbers in a healer and good mitigation numbers in a tank.
Then there are the stuff you got to do on top of all that. Kicks and what not. And DDs form an integral part of that job, and what happens when its not executed correctly. As you have already mentioned with “paladin interrupt machine” example…
And that is why I disagree with giving DDs an “aura” of being “easy” and “getting away with things”. Because it is not true.
Pressure from who exactly and in what context? Are we talking 1 pack at a time in a Heroic Dungeon, or are we talking in a +11 ? In both cases tanks have to be more efficient in their pulling but for totally different reasons.
In more realistic situations all I hear is for DDs begging for smaller pulls if it makes sense time-wise. Like 1st pull of GB (dont chain pull), like 1st pull of Arakara (split it in 2 and BL boss)… they know that while they would get more DD done its incredibly more dangerous to do so. Even if the tank survives it.
I notice. That is 10s longer pack duration. Its 1 more AoE I have to deal with, ect…
And DPS is not the only messups that happen. Ninja pulling and not kicking is one of the major ones that causes instant wipes. Unlike messing up CD rotation that might cause a wipe 20s later.
We can sit all day if you want talking about tanks/healers having it hard. But most of the comments here point at DDs slacking. Well maybe DDing is not such an “easy” roll after all, and their mistakes are noticeable enough to have tanks and healers complaining about them all day.
They literally should reverse this ASAP. It cant stay the way it is.
I like this idea to address current tank issues, but I wonder why do we have to mess around with tank balance this much?
Why cant we simply tune the dungeons themselves and why do we have to wait 11 months for blizzard to do something?
Tanks are getting battered to mush every 12s because there are tank busters left and right. For me, class balance should be there to address over and under represented specs. GDruids being one of them. But the survivability of tanks should be addressed in the dungeons. IMO.
I think that’s because of the PuG experience, PuG tanks in particular.
So this is due to CD management, a lot of times the tanks will not notice if peoples CDs are up or if they are active atm, you have no idea how many times I have seen a tank chain pull right after my wings are over.
Again this is because of not having faith in the tanks, a lot of tanks will either not tag the mobs and just body pull till the end, or take too long to reach the end of the pull, the issue here for everyone else is that the add jump to random targets and DMG them, the healer then has the choice of letting people die or take aggro and die.
And here you are showing that you are Fixating on the whole instead of understanding what a route is.
A route is a Step by Step guide to where you are going.
it is not relevant how straight forward it is.
Every Step is Important.
This is where you are failing your understanding of what a route is you are looking at the whole thing and assuming that is the route you are ignoring that there are hundreds of small things that can change what you are doing how you are doing it, all of those steps are part of the route those steps is the route.
Irony here is that for the Overall route of where you go ANYONE can do it is just the tanks job to make sure you are on it.
NO ONE IS SAYING THIS!
the thing people are saying is that the TANK shoulders the MOST burden it is LITERALLY WHY PEOPLE DO NOT PLAY THE ROLE!
And you are here DIMINISHING what the role of the tank is.
This is LITERALLY what you are doing though!
You are making Light of the role of the tank you are pretending that there exist NO reason for why tanks do not want to play tank.
You are being the problem.
Sure i agree with you on this but YOU NEED TO LEARN WHAT A ROUTE IS!!!
because you are not looking at it and understanding that a route is many small things put together it is not one object it is many parts, those parts are ALL the route.
DPS have it easy compared to tanks and even healers, if you already have the knowledge of how to play a tank spec you already know the routes you already are comfortable with everything going on you already are doing, you already have the gear.
Only at that point does tanking become on the same level as a dps.
That is why it is so hard to get people to play tank.
And i say this as someone who mostly play dps both ranged and melee i also play tank i also heal.
My experience in particular comes down to the casters that come with the 2 big guys.
When DDs hide from the dragon’s AoE (as they should) 2 things can happen:
A) the casters that are machine gun casting bolts will all target the tank and 1-shot him.
B) the AoE that should be kicked is not. And creates an instant wipe.
So 9/10 times its a wipe if you double pull there. Unless you got perfect kick coordination that is.
In this case its because of a similar reason to GB pull. Too much stuff to kick and manage. And 1 person bot kicking on time == someone dies. And 1 dead person is less kicks wich inevitably means a wipe.
So it either goes perfect or its instant wipe. And in arakara the timer is fine. Unless you play in the +15 or more there is no need to double pull like that.
Thats my experience atleast.
Still happens when I am just a sidelining as a dps.
Ok. I don’t know. Maybe you pug in the +12 and above range and people there are different but when I am doing stuff in the “casual” 7-10 range.
The "zug zug. Look my 1st in dapz metter. me woW God! oh look banana…me eat! 
" dps.
Dem actually moving out of the fire is already a cause for celebration and them not flaming the healer or tank for dying to their self made mistake is already a sign that there is hope for the run…
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