If we have a faster release cadence, make grinds faster too

[Tirel-shazzrah]

Good joke
I would not call it a nerf, it is going to make the game harder. An indirect way of evening out the playing field perhaps - When it comes to classes scaling differently with the buffs.

[Everstorm-mirage-raceway]

I got nothin to fear 90% ill roll hunter he got nothin scale with anyway XD. But remember this conv we did today coz after 6 months tops there gonna be posts asking for changes… again and every change is done worse our game it becomes.

[Richdude-nordrassil]

@Prosident-argent-dawn

World Buffs were literally nothing more than a “cool buff” you could use if you want.

Yes. And now Blizzard won’t let people decide if they want to use them anymore. How is that a good thing?

@Prosident-argent-dawn

And you can’t really play around a random priest purging you off your buffs, it just happens.

Yes you can. You can choose not to get them if you worry too much about getting dispelled, or you can choose not to get dispellable world buffs.

@Prosident-argent-dawn

Oh I don’t doubt that, Warrior is the de facto best class in Classic, but having more debuff slots and not having world buffs in raids will mean that other classes will be more competitive.

Which classes will become significantly more competetive with warriors without world buffs and unlimited debuff slots?

@Prosident-argent-dawn

I really can’t follow this logic. I would advise you compare mythic raiding, high end m+ and high end pvp to Classic, and then tell me that Retail requires 0 effort or commitment.

Yes… Retail mythic raiders have been praising how their commitment is being rewarded compared to other players so much that the mythic raiders are flocking to retail, right? That game couldn’t possibly be catering to casuals.

@Prosident-argent-dawn

You could even just compare Heroic raiding, +15’s and arena at 2k rating and you’d still see tons more effort than any Classic raid ever will.

Heroic raiding doesn’t require much effort, unless you consider “don’t stand in the very obvious fire” and push the button that highlights when it won’t be a terrible idea to push it a lot of effort.

The really nice thing about classic however is that it is up to the players themselves how much effort they want to out into it. If you want to raid without consumes and world buffs you can do it. If you want to go all in with them and use cancelaura macros to make sure you don’t push off beneficial buffs you can do that as well. Most people choose something in between. The raids will be easy regardless of what you do, but removing some of the player choice will make them less fun for a lot of people.

[Prosident-argent-dawn]

@Richdude-nordrassil

Yes. And now Blizzard won’t let people decide if they want to use them anymore. How is that a good thing?

You’re discrediting the behavior of the modern player. Yes, the buffs were put there because they were cool, but after having played the game for 17 years, players use it as a tool to be more powerful for when they clear a raid. Vanilla raids weren’t balanced with the insanely powerful worldbuffs in mind - and a significant portion of the playerbase did get WBs before each raid.

For the most part, it was breeding toxicity. Getting dispelled and dying during a raid was extremely frustrating, and makes the player feel they just wasted their time on getting a one time buff. And the difference between someone who has WBs and doesn’t is significant.

@Richdude-nordrassil

Yes you can. You can choose not to get them if you worry too much about getting dispelled, or you can choose not to get dispellable world buffs.

So you’re telling me the way to outplay getting your buffs purged is by not getting them? OK dude

@Richdude-nordrassil

Which classes will become significantly more competetive with warriors without world buffs and unlimited debuff slots?

I never said significantly, it’s quite a strong word for what I was implying.

As an example, now that by the tail end of 1.13, a lot of bugs were fixed concerning Spellret, bugs that were dragging down the spec. The spec didn’t scale as amazingly with WBs as did Warrior, and with having no limits on debuff slots, it also allows them to judge Crusader for an added spell damage bonus without the fear of it being pushed off. However, I highly doubt they will be as strong or stronger than a Warrior (barring a select few fights).

Other examples may include DoTters being able to DoT on the move with impunity, judging multiple seals, and in general the convenience of not getting debuffs pushed off.

@Richdude-nordrassil

Yes… Retail mythic raiders have been praising how their commitment is being rewarded compared to other players so much that the mythic raiders are flocking to retail, right?

No one is talking about rewards, we’re talking about the effort required compared between the two games.

There is no denying that Retail’s gameplay is by miles incredibly more difficult than Classic’s ever will be. Not only do you have more complex rotations with millions of different setups involving talents, stat distribution, trinkets, legendaries, covenants, conduits and soulbinds, you also have to execute optimal gameplay on bosses and mobs that have more and more mechanics.

I will agree that Classic however requires more effort in the terms of having to get your consumables and WBs, or in other words, pre-raid prep. But you may compare that to having to memorize complex bossfights, which also does take up quite a bit of time, not to mention that ALL the fights on Classic are already figured out for you before you even make your character. Retail constantly gets new content.

@Richdude-nordrassil

That game couldn’t possibly be catering to casuals.

It caters to casuals in a lot of ways, just not endgame. If you really want to push yourself - say, clearing the current mythic raid, doing +20s, or getting 2.4k in arena - you have to constantly learn and re-learn how each class functions, works and performs, you have to learn each new raid and dungeon and figure out the routes for optimal clear speed, and you have to keep developing new strategies for PvP as the meta changes.

On top of this, you have adittional grinds, such as Korthia (which is a daily 20-40minutes of your life per character) that gives you sockets and conduits, or Torghast, which allows you to craft your Legendaries.

Even if you have less ambitious goals, such as

@Prosident-argent-dawn

You could even just compare Heroic raiding, +15’s and arena at 2k rating and you’d still see tons more effort than any Classic raid ever will.

you’ll still have to learn at the very least the intricacies of your class, the fights, and coordinate with your team to get the desired result. Compare Sylvanas Heroic to any last boss in Classic, and you’ll see just how much complicated Retail gameplay is.

Even if Retail was figured out the same way as Classic is, the gameplay is just simply much more complex.

@Richdude-nordrassil

The really nice thing about classic however is that it is up to the players themselves how much effort they want to out into it.

I mean, you can do the same in Retail too. I’d argue Retail gives you more room to choose what you want to do, given that there is more side content, and with PvE having more difficulties.

@Richdude-nordrassil

but removing some of the player choice will make them less fun for a lot of people.

I like using World Buffs too, but there is no denying that on the greater scale, it was breeding toxicity and trivializing the only piece of PvE endgame there is. And you can say “just don’t use Worldbuffs” but that’s not how it works. Players put in their part for the team, to get a successful raid clear without obstacles, and maybe even clear multiple raids in one night. WBs are an insane upgrade to performance and players WILL use them, even though everyone knows it’s going to create toxicity in the end.

[Everstorm-mirage-raceway]

nothin wrong with clearing the whole content over a single night… 6 spare nights to do whatever suits you, fap in org lvl or raid another alt, pvp and enjoy ur gear, even enjoy real life XD, yes few of us got a lil bit of that … as for the toxicity i cant imagine anythin more toxic than 1 individual complaing why rest 39 ppl he decided to team up with comes full prepared to do what they scheduled to do so, raid schedule ST x till z, not a min earlyer or beyond it… remember ppl have to short out rly and make some time for those raids… also wb was giving the mentality “watch ur health u dimwit… dont die! omg u died!? WHY?some1 ress him please…” nothin more toxic than some1 holding behind schedule 39 ppl from what they have planed.

[Richdude-nordrassil]

@Prosident-argent-dawn

You’re discrediting the behavior of the modern player. Yes, the buffs were put there because they were cool, but after having played the game for 17 years, players use it as a tool to be more powerful for when they clear a raid.

People did that back in 2006, and probably in 2005 as well. It has nothing to do with “the modern player”.

@Prosident-argent-dawn

For the most part, it was breeding toxicity. Getting dispelled and dying during a raid was extremely frustrating, and makes the player feel they just wasted their time on getting a one time buff.

Again, if you can’t handle losing them, don’t get them in the first place. Despite the “toxicity” people chose to try to get them, they clearly enjoyed playing with buffs more than they did playing without them. PvP also “breeds toxicity”, should we get rid of that as well? Same goes for wiping, should we remove death?

@Prosident-argent-dawn

And the difference between someone who has WBs and doesn’t is significant.

People cleared naxx in well under 2 hours without world buffs. While they can make things easier, it is not like it will make naxxramas take 6 hours to clear, or prevent people from killing the majority of bosses. “Pugs” killed the hardest bosses in the game without them.

@Prosident-argent-dawn

So you’re telling me the way to outplay getting your buffs purged is by not getting them? OK dude

I never said anything about outplaying. People managed to keep their world buffs just fine. If you are uncapable of that, don’t get them.

@Prosident-argent-dawn

I never said significantly, it’s quite a strong word for what I was implying.

So them getting more “competetive” won’t matter. Glad we can agree on something.

@Prosident-argent-dawn

However, I highly doubt they will be as strong or stronger than a Warrior (barring a select few fights).

They will still be complete garbage and struggle to get a raid spot.

@Prosident-argent-dawn

Other examples may include DoTters being able to DoT on the move with impunity, judging multiple seals, and in general the convenience of not getting debuffs pushed off.

Sounds like making the game a lot easier to me. Mistakes now have fewer consequences.

@Prosident-argent-dawn

No one is talking about rewards, we’re talking about the effort required compared between the two games.

You are wrong. Retail is catering to casuals by handing out very good rewards for close to no effort. That’s the whole point. Noone here has claimed naxxramas in classic requires less effort or skill than clearing mythic raids in retail when they are current content.

@Prosident-argent-dawn

and you have to keep developing new strategies for PvP as the meta changes.

Unlike speedrunning in classic?

@Prosident-argent-dawn

you’ll still have to learn at the very least the intricacies of your class, the fights, and coordinate with your team to get the desired result

Unlike classic? You still ahven’t figured out the warrior and mage “rotations” by the way.

@Prosident-argent-dawn

I mean, you can do the same in Retail too. I’d argue Retail gives you more room to choose what you want to do, given that there is more side content, and with PvE having more difficulties.

Do you though? You got a flask, prepot and pot? What other optional stuff do you have that will affect your gameplay in raids?

@Prosident-argent-dawn

I like using World Buffs too, but there is no denying that on the greater scale, it was breeding toxicity and trivializing the only piece of PvE endgame there is. And you can say “just don’t use Worldbuffs” but that’s not how it works.

It very much is how it works. Noone is forcing you to get them other than yourself.

@Prosident-argent-dawn

Players put in their part for the team, to get a successful raid clear without obstacles, and maybe even clear multiple raids in one night.

BWL and MC both takes less than an hour in half decent gear without world buffs. People cleared naxx in less than 2. It’s not like you can’t clear multiple raids in one night without world buffs.

@Prosident-argent-dawn

WBs are an insane upgrade to performance and players WILL use them, even though everyone knows it’s going to create toxicity in the end.

Please explain why something breeding toxicity is such a terrible thing for the game. Many core mechanics does exactly that.

[Prosident-argent-dawn]

@Richdude-nordrassil

People did that back in 2006, and probably in 2005 as well. It has nothing to do with “the modern player”.

But nowhere near the same scale.

@Richdude-nordrassil

Again, if you can’t handle losing them, don’t get them in the first place.

5head

You’re just completely ignoring the reason why a lot of people grab world buffs just so you can sound smarter.

@Richdude-nordrassil

Despite the “toxicity” people chose to try to get them, they clearly enjoyed playing with buffs more than they did playing without them. PvP also “breeds toxicity”, should we get rid of that as well? Same goes for wiping, should we remove death?

There is a fundamental difference between a system in the game that is breeding degeneracy, and a system where two teams compete against eachother where deaths are regular (and sometimes, even the key to win).

There are two ways of handling toxicity: either removing the feature that is causing toxic behavior, or changing said toxic system. Worldbuffs ironically fall into both categories (removed from Seasonal, Chronoboon on Classic Era), but I think most players will appreciate not having to do a massive world tour before each raid.

There’s also the argument that Worldbuffs imbalance raids, which is just a fact.

At the end of the day, Blizzard ran the surveys, and they know the numbers. Let’s assume that they release the results of the survey, and for transparency’s sake, have a third party confirm and validate the results. Let’s say that the results showed that more than 80% of the playerbase wants WBs gone from raids. What then? There’s simply a lot more arguments against WBs than for WBs. Some of the most successful Vanilla Pservers disabled WBs in raids to improve the gameplay experience.

And it’s not a case of “gamer dad with 5 minutes a month to play” either, these servers have gathered a massive hardcore / semi-hardcore audience, simply because the game is more fun for them to play without the WBs. While I’m not allowed to name names on the forums, I happen to have first hand experience on this on two servers in particular.

You can just not get the buffs, but that’s not how it works… Either the raids are balanced around them or excluding them. Balance around, you force people into constantly running for WBs, wasting tons of time (and making people move to PvE realms), balance excluding, the raids are a joke, because people are still gonna get them like any other consumable.

@Richdude-nordrassil

People cleared naxx in well under 2 hours without world buffs.

Would have been a lot faster with WBs =)

@Richdude-nordrassil

I never said anything about outplaying.

You replied to me saying that there isn’t a way to outplay some random priest purging you of your buffs. So we WERE talking about that.

@Richdude-nordrassil

So them getting more “competetive” won’t matter. Glad we can agree on something.

It will to the casual playerbase (or for people who would just like to play their favorite class that happens to be weaker than others), as the losses won’t be as heavy as before - then again, as I understand, you’re not a big fan of those filthy casuals.

@Richdude-nordrassil

They will still be complete garbage and struggle to get a raid spot.

fix the game maybe instead of leaving it outdated ¯_(ツ)_/¯ (why is lenny broken on the wow forums?)

@Richdude-nordrassil

Sounds like making the game a lot easier to me. Mistakes now have fewer consequences.

Ah yes, because the limitations of 2004-2007 server hardware creates highly skilled gameplay, such as forcing Warlocks to literally just press Shadow Bolt. It wasn’t even intended to have the 8 / 16 debuff limits to begin with, it was literally a server issue from the old days. Having more would have caused insane lag.

@Richdude-nordrassil

Retail is catering to casuals by handing out very good rewards for close to no effort.

Because Classic doesnt? Clear raids with simplistic gameplay with close to no mechanics, or AFK in BGs to rank up?

@Richdude-nordrassil

Unlike speedrunning in classic?

Classic is solved, and it’s gameplay is mostly outdated. It will only require minimal revisions for SoM.

@Richdude-nordrassil

You still ahven’t figured out the warrior and mage “rotations” by the way.

I’m sure you’ll hit me with a 200iq revelation at some point in our argument.

@Richdude-nordrassil

What other optional stuff do you have that will affect your gameplay in raids?

Uhm… very little, if you want to exclude doing Torghast, Korthia and M+ for extra improvements for your character. The difference is that you have to put more effort into your gameplay to clear the content. Getting your consumes and WBs can very much be compared to doing Korthia dailies, since both take around 20-40 minutes a day.

Or in the case of Classic, buy gold, buy consumes and buy warlock summons for all WBs

@Richdude-nordrassil

It’s not like you can’t clear multiple raids in one night without world buffs.

Of course, but WBs speed it up significantly.

[Richdude-nordrassil]

@Prosident-argent-dawn

But nowhere near the same scale.

Maybe not on the same scale, but with a significantly more important effect.

@Prosident-argent-dawn

You’re just completely ignoring the reason why a lot of people grab world buffs just so you can sound smarter.

Why do people grab world buffs if they don’t want them?

@Prosident-argent-dawn

There are two ways of handling toxicity: either removing the feature that is causing toxic behavior, or changing said toxic system. Worldbuffs ironically fall into both categories (removed from Seasonal, Chronoboon on Classic Era), but I think most players will appreciate not having to do a massive world tour before each raid.

The only toxic behaviour it caused in classic was caused by blizzard not enforing their own rules. Start enforcing the rules as they did back in vanilla and it is no longer a problem.

@Prosident-argent-dawn

There’s also the argument that Worldbuffs imbalance raids, which is just a fact.

Again, that was also the case back in 2006. People used world buffs to be able to get world firsts. The use of the world buffs back then had a significantly bigger impact.

@Prosident-argent-dawn

What then? There’s simply a lot more arguments against WBs than for WBs.

I know a grand total of 0 players I played classic with recieving the survey. I have about as much faith in those survey results as I have in blizzard going a month without messing somethign up.

@Prosident-argent-dawn

Some of the most successful Vanilla Pservers disabled WBs in raids to improve the gameplay experience.

Which ones? As far as I know most of them only disabled them for the first month or so of new raids. That is a very big difference, and an approach many speedrunners would have no issue with.

@Prosident-argent-dawn

Would have been a lot faster with WBs =)

A bit less than an hour faster. The people doing those time probably spent more time preparing and practicing for raids than most people spent on raiding though. Speedrunning isn’t about time spent on the game.

@Prosident-argent-dawn

You replied to me saying that there isn’t a way to outplay some random priest purging you of your buffs. So we WERE talking about that.

No. You did not use the word outplay. Your sentence had a very different meaning, it may not have been your intention, but it did.

@Prosident-argent-dawn

It will to the casual playerbase

Will it though? They still won’t find any more raiding spots, they could already use their dots in solo play/dungeons. I guess you are right, more people will roll those classes thinking they can do ceompetetive dps just to quit the game once they find out their class/spec is still garbage for raiding.

@Prosident-argent-dawn

fix the game maybe instead of leaving it outdated

If classic proved anything, it was that it is not outdated.

@Prosident-argent-dawn

Ah yes, because the limitations of 2004-2007 server hardware creates highly skilled gameplay, such as forcing Warlocks to literally just press Shadow Bolt. It wasn’t even intended to have the 8 / 16 debuff limits to begin with, it was literally a server issue from the old days. Having more would have caused insane lag.

What are you rambling on about? Most dots is a straight up dps loss even with unlimited debuff slots, nothing else.

@Prosident-argent-dawn

Classic is solved, and it’s gameplay is mostly outdated.

Repeating a lie does not make it true.

@Prosident-argent-dawn

I’m sure you’ll hit me with a 200iq revelation at some point in our argument.

I wasn’t aware the internet required 200iq to find information.

@Prosident-argent-dawn

Uhm… very little, if you want to exclude doing Torghast, Korthia and M+ for extra improvements for your character.

Ah gearing up… Yes, that only requires effort in retail, not in classic.

@Prosident-argent-dawn

Getting your consumes and WBs can very much be compared to doing Korthia dailies, since both take around 20-40 minutes a day.

Only if you buy your gold.

[Prosident-argent-dawn]

I dont think we’ll ever reach a conclusion.

Blizzard has set their way with #somechanges. I got the survey, a bunch of people I know also got it, and tons of people voiced their opinions in forums and subcommunities. I have no hard evidence (not until survey results are released and confirmed by a 3rd party), but I’m quite confident that there is a much larger demand for a #somechanges environment now than a #nochanges one, after having played a bunch of Pservers and Classic itself.

Those who are aboard the SoM have been suggesting ideas, something that even Blizz asked people to do. I voiced my thoughts (removing respec costs and aligning certain grinds with the release schedule), I hope Blizzard acts on it.

In my opinion, Vanilla purists really should try it out and give it a fair shake. Maybe it’s not as bad as you think it’ll be.