If you aren't gonna do a new class for shadowland

Community General Discussion
81

Of course I do. I really take anything into account in a sense when I point at straight similarities.

No, that’s what you think it is. I think the class fantasy is just fine - it’s the rotations and the core gameplay loops that are too similar…

This is where I disagree. I think shamans are all about totems. Little immobile “pets” that can be summoned. Why is Searing Totem necessarily more clunky than Fire Shock? Why couldn’t Searing Totem be this thing that damage one target and puts debuffs on others which then turns an Earthquake into a volcano or something like that? It could be really cool!

Why not? Why is the mana bar just there to fool the enemy? Why is it just a Spellsteal Charge-bar? I mean literally if you put 5 charges on Spellsteal then you could entirely remove mana from Mages. It’s all it does.

Arcane is different. Arcane actually does care about mana. It doesn’t run out of it, but it does care about it. More of that please - but only for mages!

Not having massive downtime is fine, but I disagree that fighting an enemy equates to casting a spell that does damage. Of course spells that do damage are an important part of being a damage dealers, but it’s far from everything a class should be about, and trying to diversify the class beyond that does, in my opinion, not make it clunky.

It feels like Blizzard have been thinking the way you do, and have ended up creating a lot of same-y specs. My message to you is: If you don’t like totems, I think picking a shaman is really weird.

Now it’s obviously possible that you picked a shaman after they got rid of the totems as they used to be, which is always going to be the danger of reintroducing the mechanics a class used to have, but nevertheless I think it sucks that I can reroll three times over and end up with the same gameplay. I think that’s boring.

The main take-away here is: Classes need to be different to allow different people to make different choices and pick their unique brand of power and their unique brand of poison. If you make everyone have the same or very similar power and poison, and someone making the choice doesn’t agree with that choice, then there’s nothing they want to play. That’s not good for anybody.

82

I’m gonna tell you why exactly totems like searing totem and flame shock differ, because flame shock is applied to the target while the totem is a ground ability that can be killed, and has a limited range, that makes all the difference.

But i have an idea to satisfy both the people who think like me, and those who want dps totems, make totem follow you around, like a levitating totem behind your back that cannot be killed and does stuff to your main target, this way you would completely remove the clunkyness.

I still prefer what we have now though, Primal primer is basically what searing totem was, but better for example.

Also i specify that i do not like totems that are necessary for the dps rotation, like searing totems. Totems like windfury are actually extremely cool, in short, totems that provide some form of dps, but in the form of a cd, i like, totems that are necessary for your standard 123 rotation i do not.

Things like dropping skyfury totem or counterstrike feel supremely awesome, while searing totem feels supremely awful, that is the difference.

83

And Flame Shock can be dispelled.

Yeah it’s different. Classes should be different.

As far as attacking a target in PvE goes they’re basically the same. Bosses don’t move around that much usually, and besides the range could be extended to be really far, and they don’t make a habit out of tab-targetting and killing totems either, so in the context of raids and M+ this doesn’t matter at all.

In PvP it does though, and it also just feels and looks very different.

That’s a ranged pet class. Reroll Demonology Warlock (one of the unique specs you just suggested copying).

I really dislike your thought process in this area, and I’m sure the feeling’s mutual, but I’m so happy you’re willing to discuss it so I can finally get some discussion and pushback on this thought I’d had for a while. I’m having a great time talking to you!

Well I don’t like 123 rotations at all but that’s a different subject matter. :stuck_out_tongue: It always feels like this thing you have to pop because your class dictates you must rather than something you use because the opponent has presented you with a challenge for which you have found a utility, if you know what I mean?

I think Searing Totems can be a lot cooler than just a totem casting Firebolts. Sure.

I agree those are really cool, but I don’t think Shamans have enough totems.

You know one I really miss? AoE dispel totem. Expensive AF, but can dispel yourself or AoE dispel massive amounts of enemies, making an anti-poison equivalent of Mass DIspel effectively, or allowing you to “death blinds” (that would then be poison like they used to be. Ancient reference…)

84

I am fine with utility totems, as long as they provide something useful.

On the other matter, in this case you are gonna have to sacrifice on class fantasy vs efficiency, i think you are being way too strict on what constitutes as similar, a totem that moves when you move, like a floating totem behind your back, is in no way similar to a demonology lock.

The problem in this case is that you are gonna have to sacrifice either class fantasy or efficiency, personally with what i offered i do not think you would have to sacrifice anything, it’s just a floating totem, kept up by air magic, perfectly fitting shaman, and it’s efficient, id say if they wanna do this properly, make frostbrand and flametongue like windfury or buffs like in the old days, they still provide their dot, add back at least 1 form of shock, like earth shock for example, make it a high burst skill with a requirement, like do x amount of stormstrike/lava lash or you have x chance when you use storm/lava to proc earth shock, and make searing totem a totem that follows you around, and you still have things like hot hand etc… This way they would remove one of the biggest gripes i have with enhancement rotation currently, which are frostbrand and flametongue, they are disruptive to the rotation, and they would introduce a high burst reliable skill, but the totem should have a long duration if not permanent, otherwise it would become just what i do not like.

I would personally really like windfury totem, but if they go this route they are gonna have to provide something really cool for each and every spec that they can bring to the group, otherwise it’s gonna be a problem, especially in m+, i do not think they will do it, same for things like counterstrike or skyfury, imagine if those were now baseline, everyone would want a shaman in their m+ group, and they would overshadow pretty much anything else.

When i said 123, i didn’t mean it literally, i also do not like rotation that are overly static.

85

That’s really a bizarre take. How is putting down a totem less efficient? Efficient is damage pr. something. What is it pr. exactly?

How is a floating totem efficient? It’s just a minion running (floating, w/e) after you, hence the comparison to Demonology Warlock.

Well that makes a lot more sense to me.

Yes. There are many forgotten specs that bring nothing - especially among the melee. Feral is one, Enhancement is another. Some melee specs already bring something quirky and cool to a group, such as rogues, warriors, demon hunters, and monks. I don’t have a problem with more bringing something of their own.

Depends. :slight_smile:

86

It’s more efficient because it follow you around, and cannot be destroyed that’s the point, having to drop the totems means that it’s subject to being destroyed, subject to line of sight much more, and subject to range problems much more.

Those are the 3 reason why old searing totem is clunky and inefficient, and it’s exactly why i never want it back as a core part of the rotation, unchanged.

87

That’s not efficiency, it’s convenience.

It also exactly describes an infinitely resummonable ranged pet.

I don’t think this is the right move for the shaman. If you want this, it’s already available elsewhere just not on shamans.

Ultimately it sounds like you want to chain-cast casted spells, and my opinion on this is that’s a mage and warlock thing. As far as enhancement goes, there are so many melee specs that don’t feature totems; why do you want to turn shaman into being exactly like all of those? Just play them instead.

idk I just really am not sure what you mean by efficient. If you’re worried that totems will decrease your DPS due to their inconvenience… I mean we can just buff your DPS. Doesn’t matter. And if you then argue that that’s gonna cause your class to be uniquely strong and crazy in a limited set of circumstances and mediocre in some others… GOOD.

88

Call it efficient, or convenience it’s the same thing.

No, the problem is not whether or not it does enough damage, the point is that it’s a trash skill, because of the reasons i listed above.

It could do a million damage per hit for all i care, it’s still a bad skill.

I just do not like it at all, it doesn’t matter if it’s true to the class fantasy, there are better ways to make the spec feel like it’s actually enhancement, or fire etc… and searing totem is not good, it has way too many problems.

I guess we just have a big disagreement on what you and i like, i want efficient specs that are fun to play, before class fantasy, and you put more emphasis on the fantasy, i think that if we have to sacrifice some “fantasy” in favor of a more efficient spec, then so be it, iv’e already provided a decent solution, that would satisfy both more or less.

89

I disagree that’s the same thing but w/e. Not important as long as we agree what we’re talking about.

It’s not bad per se, you just don’t like using it.

Are you suggesting I don’t want classes to be fun to play because you happen to not like Searing Totem?

That’s ridiculous.

Anyway, I think your idea of efficiency is to make a class that’s tightly focused on the 123 rotation while simutalenously claiming you don’t like the 123 rotation.

I don’t understand.

90

Not exactly, just that you seem to put more weight to class fantasy rather than efficiency, while i am more for efficiency even if it means losing some class fantasy.

I just do not like clunky abilities, even if they perfectly fit the spec.

Also i do not like overly static rotations, basically 123 rotations.

91

But you’ve just openly admitted that efficiency to you means that it’s easier to do the rotation without having “stops” in it to do something else.

I consider “random RNG causes me to press 4 instead of 3” to also be a 123 rotation. I want buttons that change not depending on what my class does, but what my enemy does.

92

Ehm no.

It’s not about easier, it’s about how good it feels to use.

Searing totem is a bad ability that feels bad to use for me at least, and for many others also from what i have seen.

But it does change based on what the enemy does, what are you talking about?

The standard rotation will always have a few abilities that you use over and over, that is just facts.

Then you react to your enemy based on what he is doing by using other things on top of it, whether it is running away, dropping a stun, using some cooldowns… but your standard dps rotation does not change, and how would adding searing totem change that anyway? It would be just another button to press for the rotation, a really bad on might i add.

93

Yes, yes… and YES.

94

The only reason it is “too complex to balance” is because Blizzard is incessant on destroying every single class at the release of a new expansion. Class balance would not have been such an issue had they confined themselves to a few classes at a time.

Not to mention that most classes aren’t more complicated that 3-6 core buttons 1-3 buffs and a passive feature tied in.

Either way, it’s a disappointment to see that they have added nothing, no new class, no new spec and not even major cosmetic features.

It’s also frustrating to see that some of my favourite classes and a few others (Mage, Warlock, Hunter and Rogue) are still stuck as dps only which does get quite tiring having to deal with a 15+ min queue for everything because of it, that or abandoning the character altogether.

95

Tinker got to be the single most represented unplayable “class” by now…

1 Like
96

I find it laughable that you have a vast majority of people disagreeing with your post, yet you still seem to argue against it.

  • Yes, the majority of us want abilities back just like you

  • No, we do not think the release of a new class/potential new specs for existing classes is a good idea

Why? well there is several factors that could have potential effects on how classes turn out:

  • Covenant abilities (How will these interract with classes)
  • Legendaries (Will these have a certain effect on one class that is far superior to the effect on other classes? Will they have overpowered utility in PvP? Will they even work in PvP?)
  • New abilities for certain classes
  • Unpruned abilities for certain classes
  • New numbers transitioning into Shadowlands (Some classes scale extraordinarily well with numbers and the damage of their abilities usually dictate how well they fit into the metagame)

And these are just a few I could name off the top of my head, there is surely more that plays into the class balance that i personally can’t predict.

This is the reason the majority of us don’t want a new class or a new spec, simply because we’ve had to play the shadow of what our classes used to be for this long. We want our old classes back and for that to happen, Blizzard HAS to focus on the task at hand. If you throw another class/spec into the mix, Blizzard has to focus more attention on where that class or that spec would belong in the metagame, rather than focus their attention on already existing classes.

Last but not least, I don’t want wow classes to get the same treatment as champions in League of Legends. What happens very often in League is, that a new champion is released that is simply put a better version of an already existing champion.

I want Shadowlands to succeed, but for that to happen, they HAVE to look into the complaints from the playerbase and from what I personally see, these are as follows:

  • Better balancing in PvE and especially PvP
  • Better class design
  • Better gear progression
  • No more titanforging
  • No more randomization on loot drops (Especially sockets)
  • Bring back tier sets
  • More fulfilling proffessions (Make BoE’s great again, no more BOP crap)
  • Give us back PvP vendors and PvP gear
  • No more forcing players into doing content they don’t enjoy (Having to do PvP for PvE essences and visa versa)
  • Allow flying at start of expansions, but have no flying areas such as Timeless Isles, Isle of Thunder, etc. with fun PvP interactions included (Bloody coin farming was a ton of fun)
  • Unpruning of abilities
  • Pruning of some abilities, specifically PvP talents such as mana rift, GPY, Gheal, Lightning Lasso, Rain from Above, etc.
  • More class identity
  • Less spec identity
  • More balance between races without making races boring (No more Restealthing night elf rogues or night elves skipping half of dungeons in m+)
  • Better progression while leveling
  • Better outdoor feel
  • Perhaps take a look at world quests and their reward system
  • No more dumb AP grinds

These are just some of the things i’ve seen people talk about and that I personally agree with. I understand not everyone will agree, but some of these are controversial. Some people might like the AP grind, some might not. Some people might like getting lucky titanforges, I for one don’t. I wan’t to know my reward and then having to do whatever it takes to get said reward.

97

We don’t know really to be honest, i also personally do not like the sound of it much.

98

Vanilla there are mechs from goblin, gnomes, dwarves.
TBC we get golems and mech stuff from Draenei and Blood elves (Stolen from draenei mostly)
In wrath there is a bit less of it though we do get the mad scientist stuff from the undead.
In MoP, SoO there was the entire thing with Blackfuse.
In WoD warmachines, and more mechs.
In Legion even more mechs, Gebling gets his battlesuit.
And now in BFA there is mechagon…

Engineering profession doesn’t even touch the extent the “Tinkerers” of warcraft go with their gadgets.

99

Did you quote the incorrect person? Was this meant to me?

It seems to be the case.

If that is indeed it, then i will say this, i do not care how many people disagree with me, i am not here for your validation, i am here to point out a few things.

The re instatement of a few unpruned ability does not necessarily mean we cannot get new classes or specs, it’s way easier to bring back a few abilities compared to making new ones.

Yea, i do want actually useful abilities back, but i also want something new to play with.

I do not care for buffs like arcane intellect, or highly situational stuff.

And i do not care how many people disagree with me at the moment, sooner or later i will be vindicated on this if it does eventually happen, i am 100 % sure about it.

100

“feels to use” is just a pseudonym for “doesn’t disrupt my constant damage casts with no other purpose than damage”. In a world like that, any utility feels disrupting and annoying. Doesn’t matter what it is. That’s also where the GCD QQ comes from as far as I can tell.

“But using a shout means I don’t get to press Rend or Mortal Strike, and that’s does all the damage. It feels baaaad!” My reaction: w0t

Easier was the wrong word. I think “fluid to the exclusion of all possible choices and utility” is a better description.

I’m talking abilities that you use based on what the enemy does and never what your class does. Here’s an example:

Hot Streak is boring because it nerfs Pyroblast’s damage to death by necessity. Blizzard added Greater Pyroblast to try to address this problem, but that doesn’t work in PvE. The whole dynamic of “how much do I have to move in the next 5 seconds and how do I make the best use of my class to deal with this” is completely gone.

Fire Blast has charges instead of costing mana. Why?

Another even crazier example is Moonkin:
Do not press Wrath or Starfire based on whether it’s a single target enemy or a tightly stacked group of enemies. No, I press them because I pressed Starsurge and Starsurge gives me empowerments and empowerments buffs the spells, so I must cast both. I just don’t get that. It strikes me as ridiculously boring.

An example of something better from the past was, for example, to do Cone of Cold (which should do actual damage!) combined with Blizzard (channeled) to slow and damage a large group of enemies. There’s nothing inherent in these two abilities that tells you to combine them - all there is is a mix of two utilities that you want to combine.

I agree with you that the original Searing Totem is kindda boring. I suggested some enhancements. You never got into those.

Of course there are going to be spells that you cast again and again. I don’t mind it if you’re fighting a boss that does nothing and is single target that the optimal rotation is then “spam Pyroblast”. The boss should do something to make me not spam Pyroblast. I want my abilities to interact with the boss or interact with other players’ abilities, not use B because A buffed B.