Imagine Thrall return to the horde only to realise

[Aatsui-twilights-hammer]

No. Ashenvale was the home of the Night Elves. They stole it from them. Again, you fail to see these blatantly obvious differences. Please learn what the relevant words mean before using them.

No Ashenvale was the home of the Trolls, who came before elves, who are in the Horde. Again you fail to see…

In Law, it is not. Murder is defined as killing with malicious aforethought. You can choose to redefine words in your own head but the rest of the world does not follow your fantasies.

And as everyone knows, intentions are subjective. From a Horde perspective, from an Alliance perspective… from a spiders perspective its food not murder, from a flies perspective its murder. Why do you decide what is malicious? Guess what, you dont

If Sylvanas kills people, which she does, then she is doing an act you have defined as being unjust under every circumstance, meaning she is doing something wrong. You did not really think this thought did you?

Thats my point, owning up to killing. Sylvannas is killing , knows she is killing, and says she is killing for her goals. You Alliance hypocrites kill and cloak it in righteous justice, but whatever reason you dress killing in,killing is killing!

Killing in the name of… great song also

[Haiete-argent-dawn]

No Ashenvale was the home of the Trolls, who came before elves, who are in the Horde. Again you fail to see…

Nope, the Elemental lords were the first.

All land is Elemental land.

[Aatsui-twilights-hammer]

Nope, the Elemental lords were the first.

All land is Elemental land.

No. Ashenvale was the home of the Night Elves. They stole it from them. Again, you fail to see these blatantly obvious differences. Please learn what the relevant words mean before using them.

And thus is Sereluna taught what “relevance” is.

[Sereluna-silvermoon]

No Ashenvale was the home of the Trolls, who came before elves, who are in the Horde. Again you fail to see…

The trolls in the Horde are the Darkspear, who never lived in Ashenvale. Even so, it was still the home of the Night Elves. The fact that some trolls may have lived there prior does not change that.

And as everyone knows, intentions are subjective. From a Horde perspective, from an Alliance perspective… from a spiders perspective its food not murder, from a flies perspective its murder. Why do you decide what is malicious? Guess what, you dont

Was there a point to this rambeling? Okay, intentions are subjective. That does not mean they cannot be categorized. You provide no argument here.

Thats my point, owning up to killing. Sylvannas is killing , knows she is killing, and says she is killing for her goals. You Alliance hypocrites kill and cloak it in righteous justice, but whatever reason you dress killing in,killing is killing!

So it is okay to kill, as long as you admit you kill. But the Alliance “cloak it in righteous justice” but also “dress it in killing” whatever that means, and therefor it is not okay. How convenient. I guess there were justifications for killing all along. When Sylvanas said “we must attack Ashenvale and kill Malfurion to secure a future for the Horde”, she was definetly not trying to be righteous.

Also, you never owned up to the proposal that killing in self-defense is not murder, and you just admitted there are cases where killing is okay, meaning your whole philosophy is incoherent and selective. You have thus failed to prove Varian commited murder.

[Aatsui-twilights-hammer]

Was there a point to this rambeling? Okay, intentions are subjective. That does not mean they cannot be categorized. You provide no argument here.

The point is your opinion is not fact. No matter how many arguments you give it to justify “malicious” intents or “liberating cities” and all that.

Also, you never owned up to the proposal that killing in self-defense is not murder,

Thats right I dont own up to that. Its still killing. Done to prevent yourself from being killed.

Same as every other “subjective” reasons one justifies his killing with.

Just killing. And “reasons”.

[Sereluna-silvermoon]

The point is your opinion is not fact. No matter how many arguments you give it to justify “malicious” intents or “liberating cities” and all that.

No, that was not the point. You did not make a point. You said “intentions are subjective” claimed there were perspectives about it, and then declared I do not decide what is malicious, which had nothing to do with anything.

Thats right I dont own up to that.

You do realize this is the same as admitting you cannot uphold the logic of your argument right? This is the same as admitting your argument is a failure.

Done to prevent yourself from being killed.

Same as every other “subjective” reasons one justifies his killing with.

Just killing. And “reasons”.

This means nothing.

So, you have failed to prove what Varian did was murder. Failed to prove that killing=murder, and failed to establish that there are no justifications for killing.

[Zakkaru-burning-legion (Zakkaru)]

Nope, the Elemental lords were the first.

All land is Elemental land.

So I guess nelves should be happy with bigass volcano in middle of ashenvale, giant tornado in Darkshore and half of Hyjal roasted out

To be fair Azeroths elementals were obstale for life to flourish on Azeroth, and it was a reason why they had to be locked in Elemental planes.

[Sereluna-silvermoon]

To be fair Azeroths elementals were obstale for life to flourish on Azeroth, and it was a reason why they had to be locked in Elemental planes.

So it is okay for the titans to remove the elementals from their natural habitat to impose their civilization on Azeroth, but it is not okay for the dwarves to do so to the trolls. Got it.

[Zakkaru-burning-legion (Zakkaru)]

So it is okay for the titans to remove the elementals from their natural habitat to impose their civilization on Azeroth, but it is not okay for the dwarves to do so to the trolls. Got it.

Trolls were not disabling for other life forms to flourish on earth. Trolls are sentient creatures.

Dwarves were purposely pushing to a territory of natives that already establshed themselves.

That claim is plain retarded. Have you read it before typing it?

[Sereluna-silvermoon]

Trolls were not disabling for other life forms to flourish on earth.

They were preventing the dwarves from living where they wanted.

Trolls are sentient creatures.

So are elementals.

Dwarves were purposely pushing to a territory of natives that already establshed themselves.

Like the titans did to the elementals. Gald we agree.

That claim is plain retarded. Have you read it before typing it?

Well yeah. I responded to your claim did I not? Of course I read it first.

[Aatsui-twilights-hammer]

So, you have failed to prove what Varian did was murder. Failed to prove that killing=murder, and failed to establish that there are no justifications for killing.

What Varian did was killing. The reason Moira and Dwarves didnt challenge Varian was because he would kill them.

The reason he didnt kill Moira was because Anduin stopped him.

You can justify his actions all you want, but what this practically was , is simply a display of power. And when the powerful oppress the weak (since the dwarfs had no chance) then yes, its very much murder even by your standards.

You say its an act of War, but they were Dwarfs. They are part of the Alliance. Even the Dark Iron , some were, all are currently. So its Alliance killing Alliance. And it worked perfectly for Varian to establish himself as the High King!

Thats the parallels with Sylvannas. But Sylvannas didnt execute an army of Orcs, she only hunted Saurfang.

She didnt kill Tauren, she only imprisoned Baine, and executed Zelling.

So as is obvious (not to your brain I know), the entire posts is about Strong leaders establishing themselves within their faction.

And somehow you bring Ashenvale and Horde attack nelfs into this ffs. Like we dont have enough nelf posts already

In a Civil environment, such as Varian Humans dwarfs, which is essentially people from the same side killing each other, civil war environment, its always murder!

Cause no matter your reasons thats like the corpse of your cousin over there… and that guys Aunt or something.

So yes Varian commited murder. And he would kill double the people if they were between him and his son. He would. He did. He would again.

[Ashval-draenor (Ashval)]

The levels of mental gymnastics that Sylvanas fanboys take to justify their goth mommy GF are insane.

[Zakkaru-burning-legion (Zakkaru)]

They were preventing the dwarves from living where they wanted.

You’re comparing apples to oranges. This is why it’s retarded.

So are elementals.

They were not, thats why they were locked.

Like the titans did to the elementals. Gald we agree.

Azeroth is a titan too you know.

Well yeah. I responded to your claim did I not? Of course I read it first.

Well then stop doing it because you fail in it.

[Sereluna-silvermoon]

And when the powerful oppress the weak (since the dwarfs had no chance) then yes, its very much murder even by your standards.

Moira seized the dwraves’ city agaisnt their will and opressed them. She was acting maliciously. Freeing them is not malicious.

You say its an act of War, but they were Dwarfs. They are part of the Alliance. Even the Dark Iron , some were, all are currently. So its Alliance killing Alliance. And it worked perfectly for Varian to establish himself as the High King!

No, they were not part of the Alliane. Plainly so. The fact that they joined the Alliance later on does not make them Alliance by the time of taking the city.

But Sylvannas didnt execute an army of Orcs, she only hunted Saurfang.

She blighted her own troops.

She didnt kill Tauren, she only imprisoned Baine, and executed Zelling.

She trotured Derek.

And even so, this has nothing to do With anything.

And somehow you bring Ashenvale and Horde attack nelfs into this ffs.

That illustrated Your hypocricy and double standard.

In a Civil environment, such as Varian Humans dwarfs, which is essentially people from the same side killing each other, civil war environment, its always murder!

It was not a civil war. It was an Allied Kingdom, saving a another from foreign invaders.

So yes Varian commited murder.

So because the person you killed had family, it was murder? Is it that had to remember the definition of murder?

You’re comparing apples to oranges. This is why it’s retarded.

Why? Non elemental life-forms had no inherent right to exist on Azeroth more than the elements. The titans decided to impose their will on the natural inhabitants, forcing them to move for the sake of their vision of life. Just like the dwarves did to the trolls. Yes you only see the latter as an injustice, and you have provided no argument as to why, other than a “apple/orange” dismissal, not explaining what is different. Seriosuly, if you cannot argue as to why one is justified, and the other not, you lose the entire argument as to why the dwarves did an injustice to the trolls. Better pucker up bub.

They were not, thats why they were locked.

They were. They plainly were. You are staright up denying established lore. Just look at the picture of the elemental lords fighting the titan-forged. Proof there were sentient elements.

Azeroth is a titan too you know.

Yes, she is also completely irrelevant to the argument I made. I do not even knwo why you brought her up.

Well then stop doing it because you fail in it.

Prove it.

[Aatsui-twilights-hammer]

That illustrated Your hypocricy and double standard.

Girl whatever you’re smoking is good!

You cant “prove” Varian didnt commit murder cause you dont know his intents.

Moira didnt have Malicious intent. She was the rightful heir to the Throne. Thats why they let her live.

Varian only attacked to liberate Anduin. Not the allied nation lol. That was just two birds with one stone.

So Varian moved against the rightful heir in this case.

Another example of how subjective things can be.

But you just see things only your way. Alliance always is entitled to … (insert whatever here)

[Zakkaru-burning-legion (Zakkaru)]

Yes you only see the latter as an injustice, and you have provided no argument as to why, other than a “apple/orange” dismissal, not explaining what is different.

You were provided reason TWO TIMES. Not my fault that you dismiss it or you you dont understand it.

They were. They plainly were. You are staright up denying established lore. Just look at the picture of the elemental lords fighting the titan-forged. Proof there were sentient elements.

Read a chronicles, this is where it was elaborated. Those were raging furies, elementals calmed down because they were locked, but back then they were in chaos and clearly unstable - and it was also elaborated why they were like that.

Yes, she is also completely irrelevant to the argument I made. I do not even knwo why you brought her up.

It does make a point. If Azeroth is a titan and the creatues that live there harm her, like old gods, then it is justified that titan bros tries to remedy that.

Besides nelves no other Azeroth born race actually did damage to the planet itself.

[Sereluna-silvermoon]

You cant “prove” Varian didnt commit murder cause you dont know his intents.

Now you are just shifting the burden of proof. You claimed Varian commited murder, thus the onus is on you. And we do know his intent because it is elaborated ecplicitly in the book. To free Ironforge.

Moira didnt have Malicious intent. She was the rightful heir to the Throne. Thats why they let her live.

She invaded their home with a foreign army and held the people hostage. That was malicious.

Varian only attacked to liberate Anduin. Not the allied nation lol. That was just two birds with one stone.

He attacked after Anduin escaped to Theramore. It is, again, explicitly elaborated that he wants to liberate Ironforge. You are just making Things up.

So Varian moved against the rightful heir in this case.

A “rightful heir” who was rejected by her people and opressed them. Tell me, who should Varian value more? A tyrant who sold her people out, or the people?

Another example of how subjective things can be.

How? Explain!

But you just see things only your way. Alliance always is entitled to

What is the argument here?! Make an argument!

You were provided reason TWO TIMES. Not my fault that you dismiss it or you you dont understand it.

Both of whom, I refuted.

Read a chronicles, this is where it was elaborated. Those were raging furies, elementals calmed down because they were locked, but back then they were in chaos and clearly unstable - and it was also elaborated why they were like that.

And? It was never stated they were not sentient.

If Azeroth is a titan and the creatues that live there harm her, like old gods, then it is justified that titan bros tries to remedy that.

Sure. And seeing as the elemental were not harming her, I fail to see the problem.

Besides nelves no other Azeroth born race actually did damage to the planet itself.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

I also notice you did not respond to this part:

Why? Non elemental life-forms had no inherent right to exist on Azeroth more than the elements. The titans decided to impose their will on the natural inhabitants, forcing them to move for the sake of their vision of life. Just like the dwarves did to the trolls.

So I am guessing you now realize what the dwarves did is the same as what the titans did, yet you refuse to admit it because of your bias. You really stepped in this one, did you not?

If not, please give an honest reason as to why it is okay for one race to impose their will on those who do not fit in with their plans and remove them, and not for the other, one that I have not already refuted, and you refused to respond to.

[Zakkaru-burning-legion (Zakkaru)]

Both of whom, I refuted.

And failed because those two cannot be compared, hence apples and oranges.

And? It was never stated they were not sentient.

But it was explained why they were locked. And the reason wasn’t that “they just lived there and minded their own business” like you falsely tie with trolls.

I also notice you did not respond to this part:

Because it was not worth responding, you make some big statements based on straws and pulls some other nonsense aswell to extend argue- I don’t have time for it and I got better things to do than arguing with pigeon.

[Aatsui-twilights-hammer]

How? Explain!

What is the argument here?! Make an argument!

We have made countless arguments but you just want to keep going. Just because an argument doesnt align with what you believe, doesnt mean its not valid.

So whatever keep your chit chat. I’ve given ample arguments of how subjective things can be.

You do you.

Sereluna smoking at home

[Sereluna-silvermoon]

And failed because those two cannot be compared, hence apples and oranges.

How could I have failed when you did not even respond to my refutations? You just ignored the falalcies you commited and asserted they were different.

But it was explained why they were locked . And the reason wasn’t that “they just lived there and minded their own business” like you falsely tie with trolls.

So? They were still sentient. They were minding their own business, because it was their world, until the titans came and locked them away because, as you stated, they wanted other life-forms to live there. How is that different from what the dwraves did.

Because it was not worth responding

Yeah, sure that was it. It was definetly not because you could not refute it. Even so, my argument still stands, and until you can refute it, you are a hypocrite for criticising the dwarves.

you make some big statements based on straws and pulls some other nonsense aswell to extend argue-

Prove it.

I got better things to do than arguing with pigeon.

You should try arguing with a pigeon. You are very close on an intellectual level.

Like, all this “I’m to good to argue against you” is blatantly just your attempt to avoid an argument you know you cannot win.