But then there should already be an expectation of you doing somewhere around 4-500k dps overall as mistweaver, since thats what they’re able to do today with relative ease? If you’re fine with that, then you would reasonably be fine with the expectation of you doing 800k dps (random number) if they gave you a damage buff? Nothing would change for you.
On the other hand, if you’re not fine with the expectation of you doing 4-500k dps overall today, you’d reasonably be in favor of either removing or considerably reducing healers dps, no?
Again your missing the issue I have, me as a healer CAN dps and I do but its not why am in the group its like your saying. " MR DPS you need to hit 500k healing. Why? coz I tell you to" I heal that is my roll, am not there to kill mobs for you or hold your hand wile you go potty, am a healer not a dps I dont expect dps to heal themselfs…
Why dont you make a topic asking for more healing for dps and tell them they have to hit 500k healing and see how that works out for you.
If they ever design an encounter such as last boss in Temple of Sethraliss for m+, where hps matters for you to clear the dungeon fast enough, I will absolutely side-eye any DPS that stands afk instead of using their healing abilities. As it is of now, such encounters doesn’t exist, and thus invalidates your point. The closest argument I can think of that you could use to compare it would be “ask your DPS to use defensives and see how that works out for you”. But the DPS are already expected to be using defensives, as that is a part of their toolkit that makes the dungeon easier and allows the team to procede in a more effective manner.
But yeah, once we get dungeons where higher hps = faster dungeon completion, I am 100% expecting everyone to utilize their hps as I expect healers to utilize their dps.
I did that when it was current, and my DPS didn’t matter one jot as a healer. Oh, and Kael’thas Sunstrider in SoD was the same; your argument falls flat, mate, as only SOME DPS could off-heal in those fights, and, to be honest, it was worthless. I would rather the DPS protect me from those blasted frogs and phoenixes and let me do my job.
You basically just made my argument for me, mate. When a healer has a job to do, say dispelling on Ki’katal the Harvester or healing / dispell on Avatar of Sethraliss, the last thing I’m going to do is start yelling at people to help me. Why? Well, that’s my responsibility; is it nice when that happens? Sure it is, and I am grateful, but do I expect it? Hell nah.
Again I go back to expectation vs reality, I am a healer am not gonna start dpsing for the dps or wanting more dps as I wouldnt want dps to heal for me, the moment we start wanting other people to forfill our rolls were in trubble.
I fear at this moment we could both go back and forth talking about this, but the truth is were not gonna see eye to eye and thats ok so am gonna bow out here as am kinda just repeating myself at this point I do think your wrong and I hope you can see that adding more dps to a healing roll just dilutes healers overall.
It seems that many of you think that not increasing healers’ DPS is the same as removing their DPS because then they would get bored during dungeons and deal 0 damage.
In my opinion, as I mentioned earlier, increasing healers’ DPS so they can significantly impact dungeon times and fight durations is a joke. If a healer, out of boredom when there’s nothing to heal, manages to deal 50% of the damage of a good DPS (e.g., 1 million DPS), then what’s the point of even trying as a DPS? In such a case, a very good healer will always deal more damage than an average/weak DPS.
I agree. But this just proves, regardless of what the “truth” may be, players will try to optimize. Regardless whether it is needed or not.
You may disagree, but the participation talks for itself.
Again, we can speak about personal wishes, but asking for what you are may be cool for people pushing +14’s and up, but it will affect all the players below…
So whether you strongly disagree or how spoiled you feel people have been, doesn’t really matter, if the general participation is in a decline due to extreme tank and healer shortages.
Look at my point above. Healers are already flamed for not being able to keep people up, due to extreme punishing dungeons this season… So add on top of that a new ceiling of potential dps output for the top 0.01% of player base, and it will affect everyone like a ripple effect.
Pallies mastery makes them heal harder when close but again theyre not dps… as for monk yes they can get in close and jit stuff but again its not their job to do dps.
The issue is increasing damage output will inevitably result in them topping dps meters whch absolutly should never happen.
Tanks have that curse rn bc their aoe threat is done by damage influcted, the only way of fixing it is reduce tank damage done whilst increasing threat from the stance itself as baseline or per move.
When you hit stuff on a healer monk it heals only you unless its crane kick.
Add to that the heals you get arnt rly that strong and its not worth playing the class that way.
You cant endlessly spam crane kick and keep a group alive it dosnt put out near enough hps even in mop it couldn’t but it did provide burst healing.
The end results the same the only ppl putting damage out should be the dpsers.
I hear where your comming from but the game is set in 3 lanes tank, dps,heals thats how it should be bc thats how the game was designed in 2004, changing that could and probably would kill the game.
I wasn’t saying they should dps. I was responding on the message that the healer died because of being in melee eating a cleave. But you forget those healers need to be in melee to HEAL. The monks position is in melee.
Doesn’t sound like you know how mistweaver healing works.
I knew how it worked in mop since then my monks gathered dust and not much more.
Besides the comnent i made was referring to the likes of a druid shape-shifting to cat to land a few hits then starting to heal again.
Ive actually seen ppl do that b4 today.
It shouldn’t be possible to pull it off but they do it anyway.
The elephant in the room is shammies hitting chain lightning to do uber dps, again they top the meter bc of aoe which isnt fair to actual dpsers when they are literally pressing 1 button whilst their totems keep ppl up.
Add to that ive seen many cloth healers in melee and get killed by cleaves and that makes the base of my point.
Some classes by design need to be closer to heal but not all, those that are designed that way might still by hit by the cleave damage but they still shouldt be rubbing shoulders with the tank or melee dpsers constantly.
No diversity allowed? Monk need to Rising sun kick (melee), Black out kick (melee) and tiger palm (melee) to heal. So yes they are next to the tank and melee dps. (interrupt and aoe stun are also melee abilities)
Spinning crane kick is since this expansion only usefull from like 7+ targets. It is quite nerfed. But it is of course also a melee ability.
This is all irrelevant for the discussion about damage numbers for healers.
It may come as a surprise, but Mistweaver changed a little bit since Mists of Pandaria. They are more melee focused now, with a portion of their melee abilities transfering a portion of the damage they do into healing.
Healer design shifted a lot, with some healers having a niche damage profile thry have that, on occasion, been a bit over the top (Resto shaman AoE during Shadowlands, Resto druid ST during DF). Doing DPS is only a requirement on the higher spectrum of key levels, and I find it perfectly fine that, under certain circumstances, even healers can produce good damage numbers as long as it is a trade-off: sacrificing healing for damage.
This design is a bit in conflict within healer specs, as we have two who are designed around healing based on damage.
In the end is once again on the playerbase, for setting expectations on a random group they join and get upset that said expectations are not met. It is the nature of pugging though, and I doubt it will go away even if healers are changed to not do any damage at all. They will merely find a new reason to put the blame on.
I haven’t seen anyone who seems to believe that. I’ve seen quite some folks that thinks that healers shouldn’t deal any damage at all, and instead just afk during the no-healing windows though. In other words, they want to get carried through group content.
We’ve already addressed this. To justify the increased damage they could make that damage be costly in terms of resources. That way healers still have to decide if it’s worth risking going low on mana as they might not be able to use their healing spells.
Why shouldn’t an awesome healer be able to outperform an awful DPS by just being around the same level of damage? Why do we have to coddle bad players instead of rewarding good players?
I’m sorry, but I just can’t fathom how buffing healers would make them less desirable to play. Yes, I’m aware the expectations might shift, but the tresholds to complete the dungeons gets lowered, thus also nerfing the dungeons. The players that’s going to whine are the ones asking for free carries, and they’ll always be whining.
I’ll admit, it’s been a few months since I ran really low keys so I’m not up to date with how the community is in those keys. In keys around 10-13 I rarely see healers being flamed though, unless they struggle reaching a bare 800k hps during intense moments. People (DPS and tanks) more often than not own up to their mistakes of not using defensives or standing in bad.
They will only top meters if they’re playing extremely well and the rest of the group plays extremely bad. This isn’t an issue.
Tanks only outperform bad DPS. Although a nerf to prot paladins damage are definitely warranted to bring them in line with the other tanks.
You obviously aren’t familiar with how mw monk heals. Why would you speak of things you don’t have any knowledge of?
Nobody is asking to step away from the trinity. I’m asking for my contribution to mean something throughout the entire dungeon length, not just the short moments where healing is needed. If you’ve ready through the thread you’ll see I’ve already done the math. With the proposed changes:
DPS would go from doing 26% each of the overall dps to 25% each of the overall dps.
Tank would go from doing 13% of the overall dps to 12.5% of the overall dps.
Healer would go from doing 8% of the overall dps to 12.5% of the overall dps.
As you can tell, DPS and tanks would barely notice the changes, whereas healers would feel a lot better for those that care about helping their group as much as possible. Those who want a free ride can still tag along for the free ride, as we don’t adjust dungeon timers. It’s a win-win.
That’s a sign of a great healer that cares about the groups overall perfomance. He’s not there for the free ride, he wants to contribute fully.
Resto shaman dps are among the worst, if they top meters it’s cause the DPS are drooling over their keyboard or are straight up afk.
Those are either bad healers that stand in frontals, or bad tanks that aim frontals at the group. Any melee DPS would also get one-shot in the same scenario, and the same qualities apply to them. Being in melee wether you’re ranged or not doesn’t mean that you’re doing something wrong, a lot of times it’s good to stack up.
Paladins and monks should definitely be in melee as much as possible to be as effective as possible.
Couldn’t have said it better myself. Bad players will never take responsibility or accept their own shortcomings.
Again its a class design im talking about this in general terms not just monks tbh i actuslly forgot about them until they were brought up.
Yh the do need melle moves but again being in melee means you can be hit with a cleave attack its just one of those thing’s also ive no issues with them being in melle my issue is clases being made into dps/healer hybrids you can have a monk hitna rising sun kick in mist stance snd reduce the damage through the floor whilst still allowing it to heal effective same way as tank damage can be reduced and a buff to tps being added to balance it out, you could use the rising sun kick to give a sharp boost to your healing.
Obv ppl are mistaking what it is im trying to get across if your meant to be closer to the fight then yh cool w/e again im talking about peeps who are mot meant to be on top of the bosses/mobs.
Exactly i agree 10000000% its just when you get ppl doing it and they get killed its the tankd fault or a dps oberpulled or somthing else that lets them get out of their own line of fire.
I have no problem with melee healers being able to get hit by cleaves.
This is how the normal dps log looks like of the mistweaver (first log i was able to find). https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/CN64nY7rz283QBbc?fight=6&type=damage-done&source=447
The normal melee dps buttons (like i said; rising sun kick. blackout kick and tiger palm) aren’t even that high damage. It is about the chosen hero-talenttree and the new Crackling jade lighning. That last one is not even a melee ability.
It is difficult to understand what your real problem is with melee healers.
For a lot of healers, also priests and shamans it it normal to be very close to melee. Something like healing rain or barrier or power word AOE heal is a ‘small’ circle where you need to be.
There are mechanics of bosses that spawn adds based on the spots of the players (like 2nd boss Dawnbreaker). You just need to be in melee at that moment. it is is also easier to dodge cone frontals when you are closer to the target. Needing to stack on bosses is a very normal mechanic.
What is wrong with being in melee or close to melee?
Ok. Here’s the deal, right? In your world, you get higher DPS for healers. This is what happens.
To rebalance the extra damage healers now have, Blizzard has to increase monster HP AND damage. Why, you ask? Well, simple 0-8’s are now so easy most people can just 0-brain them, as the extra damage healers bring makes them so easy. 8-11 are now a lot harder; the extra DPS and HP pools of mobs mean more damage to the party, and now you have to heal a lot more to keep people up. Only DPS healers are ever brought into M+; as not to have them, you’re just kneecapping yourself.
Early seasons are a nightmare, as most healers can’t cope with the extra DPS responsibility. Add on top of that the community set arbitrary DPS goals more to flex than anything else, so only the classes that reach said goal are invited to keys, so as a knock-on effect, you have fewer healers than you do now; wait times are longer across the board as you just cut the available healers down by at least 25%/50%.
See, it’s easy to say healers need more DPS, but the knock-on effects just make things worse for everyone. There’s a reason Blizzard hasn’t gone down the FF14 path. Encounters in WoW are based around 3 things being true: tanks keep aggro, healers keep people alive, and DPS kill things. If one of them fails, the group as a whole fails.
If you look at how healing works at the moment, a percent of damage from your spells is turned into healing; now the hope would be that as the percent of damage increases, so does the healing; however, to balance that, you now have to buff instances to keep things from being boring, so monster HP and DPS go up in line with any extra DPS or healing you bring. That’s why when you look at how Blizzard balances things, DPS healers are very tightly balanced.
So what you end up doing is changing the meta to be more DPS-focused, as the higher keys are now a lot harder, as the extra DPS and HP mobs have just made pushing now harder. Only high-skilled teams with meta comps can really push higher keys, so in the end the gap between the player base becomes bigger.
This is what I mean when I say that as a DPS healer, MW, who does DPS to heal, I don’t want that extra responsibility, as it will put more focus on me not only keeping people alive; I now have to DPS like a DPS player to even finish the key. That’s not fair not only to me but the DPS as well, as it diminishes the role of a healer.
I’ve specifically stated several times that the dungeons shouldn’t be buffed to compensate for this. This would result in the dungeon timer being nerfed 5% if we go through with my proposal.
But let’s play with the idea that they buff to compensate. Since the healer DPS now made it 5% easier (if utilized perfectly), they would have to adjust the dungeon timers by reducing them with 5%. If we use City of Threads for an example, as that is one of the dungeon a lot of people seem to consider is one of the hardest, the timer would go from being 34 minutes to 32 minutes and 18 seconds. It’s not a tremendous change, and timers aren’t THAT tight even today. It’s a non-issue. I get that you could just increase mob hp by 5% instead of adjusting the timer, both works, but there’s no need to adjust the damage they deal (unless you REALLY want to nitpick, even then you’d only have to increase mob dmg with 3,75% to compensate, and boss dmg with 3%, which is neglible. Those numbers are based on how Tyrannical and Fortified health/damage increase scales).
If we were to go along with my request, all healers would be of equal dps. A “dps healer” would only mean that a healer plays like mw monk or disc, but even shaman or r druid would still be able to achieve the same damage numbers if they played at the same skill level.
Our opinions just contradict each other here, neither your our mine opinion is factual.
Again, if we go by the proposed change, all healers would be dealing equal amounts of damage, thus voiding this argument.
Nobody is saying healers need more dps, I’m saying I want more dps to raise the skill ceiling and reward players that like to optimize.
You and I both know that this is an oversimplification. The roles synergize and everyone shares “jobs”, some just lean heavier into one job than others.
I’m not asking for healing to be increased, that would obviously have to be tuned too if MW/Disc priest damage were to increase. It’s an easy numbers tweak, even if a lot different mechanisms are in play.
The healing remains the same, but sure they can buff mob hp by 5% to compensate. Yet again, if we want to go as far as play along with your idea that the damage should be increased too, they can buff mob damage with 3,75% and boss damage with 3%, that’s fine.
Meta will shift because of other dungeon tuning/design choices. My proposed changes will put a healer damage on equal footing if properly implemented, if blizzard got the skills to pull that off is a different thing though. In theory, any healer picks previously based on how much damage they could pump would now shift to how useful their toolkit is, and that’s another design issue. Meta will always exist.
I’ve understood you don’t want that. I want that though, that’s why I advocate for it. In my opinion, if you’d like to play for at a skill level further away from the skill leveling, I still think you should be allowed to, hence why I don’t want any dungeon tuning to compensate the increased damage.
You don’t, as DPS rotations are far more complex than healer dps rotations, and you won’t have to power (50%, still the number I’m asking for) to rival DPS of equal skill. Plus I’m still not advocating for dungeon tunings.
But you’ve made it very clear all along that we don’t see eye to eye and that’s okay. We want different things for the healer role, and our desires are just that. Desires. They can’t be right or wrong as there is nothing factual about them. It’s alright if we want different things, and probably healthy for the game too.
Just curious, how you calculate 50% of DPS?
While spending 100% of time at dps (0 breaks on heal) you should be able to pop 50% of top ench shaman damage?
Or 50% dps, but yor are also keeping group alive, but in this case what if you spend 100% of time at dps?
Or 50% of average dps (like affi lock/shadow priest) which, as we can see in charts, are doing ~70% of ench shammy damage?
What if my class is not able to deal as much damage even played quite good, but healer with good design will be able to deal similar damage as me
Cleave damage is whats wrong yiur opening yourself to more melle attacks by being close.
Lets say the tank faces a mob the wrong way and you get hit, it can also occur wh3n manouvering into pos, the tank may want to los mobs to them your close you throw a heal bang your dead bc you draw aggro.
This is more prevalent in classic cata ofc but it still matters.
Im not saying you cannot be close im saying it can be unwise based on the fight.
Ive seen healers get one shot bc of being too close in raids and 5 mans, ultimately its the call of the persons doing it but it increases extra damage risk.