Especially while having a tank that thinks dancing tango with the cleave mob in Necrotic Wake is a splendid idea.
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I have absolutely no idea what is wrong with this. I am dealing with this since BFA on my holy paladin and mistweaver, which i have mained both for a lot of seasons. Yes you have to pay attention on your positioning. So what?
I believe I’ve aleady given the numbers for this around reply no. 33 for this post, but I’ll clarify.
If my proposal go through, exactly the way I want it to happen:
- Healers would, when focusing 100% on dealing damage and optimizing their build for it, deal 50% of a DPS performing at the same skill level.
Since shamans are ridiculously strong right now, we won’t deal 50% if their damage, but rather 50% of someone that’s at the middle of the pack. Such as feral druid if we go by the chart you provided earlier in the thread.
Although, I’d suggest we, for the simplicity of the discussion, say that an optimally played feral druid does 2M dps. Then healers should be able to deliver 1M dps when focused fully on dealing damage.
Shaman should obviously be nerfed, all DPS should be able to deliver equal amounts of dps, yada yada. That’s another discussion.
I’m assuming “your class” is a healer in this statement. With my proposal ALL healers will be able to deal equal amount of damage, doesn’t matter if you’re a shaman, monk, paladin, priest, or evoker, you’ll be equal (theoretically, blizzard haven’t got a flawless record when it comes to balancing, but that’s the idea at least).
Since MW monk has been mentioned several times already I’ll discuss the idea around that spec here. MW monk pretty much fulfills what i envision for healer dps already. When specced into Rushing wind kick they can deliver upwards of 1M overall dps in dungeons where DPS (not shamans, but classes like feral and sub rogue) can deliver 2M overall dps. What I’d like to change about them is their single target dps, which I would like to be greater. In return I’d nerf their aoe dps slightly to keep them at the same overall dps.
That way they’re more likely (numbers obviously had to be tested) will perform 50% of a dps of similar skill in both aoe and single target, when fully focusing on dealing damage.
It’s great that you discuss, but this is entirely irrelevant to the thread. Please take that discussion elsewhere and stay on topic here.
Thanks.
This is already the case though or at least very close to that.
I’d rather say a third to a bit more than third. Just based on glancing over Sikran logs given healing there is non existent and healers can just go ham (i will ignore any AoE scenarios for very apparent reasons)
What you remember is utter bs like a Venthyr Holy Paladin completely blowing up the charts during ashen hollow.
Tanks work differently. Firstly they are fighters. Secondly their damage directly translates into their aggro generation and Blizzard doesnt want auto attack and 100% aggro for all eternity anymore.
It is for some healers, like MW monk, but not for all healers. If we keep looking at NW 10 to keep the same metric for monks and other healers we can see that:
- Monks can do about 1000-1040k overall.
- Evoker can do about 810-860k overall.
- Disc priest can do about 680-710k overall.
- Holy priest can do about 635-645k overall.
- Paladins can do about 550-570k overall.
- Resto shamans can do about 550-610k overall.
- Resto druid can do about 550-580k overall.
For reference a feral druid can do about 2000-2140k overall.
I’m ignoring the runs where someone starts as a healer and then switch to dps, as those aren’t representative.
As you can see, the balance between theoretical output is vastly different between healers.
That’s your opinion, but indeed they were stronger.
I’d argue everyone is combat trained, as everyone participates in combat. If we’re assinging labels tanks are meat shields, not fighters. Their agro generation may as well be increased and damage decreased if you want to go down that route, although that would be boring for everyone.
For example, let’s use prot warriors shield slam and some artificial numbers. Today Shield slam will deal 100 damage and generate 1 threat point per damage dealt. Tomorrow we nerf tank damage. Shield slam then deals 50 damage and instead generates 2 points per damage dealt.
There you go, tank damage is now nerfed, and threat remains the same. Correct me if im wrong but I think that invalidates the point regarding tanks threat.
Those numbers are WITH healing too right?
Abyssmal healing, but yeah, they use healing spells every now and then. Although as they perform at the worlds greatest level there isn’t exactly anything to heal, as everyone does what they’re supposed to.
If you want to compensate for the abysmal healing they do I think you can increase the potential output by each and every class with 10% (more like 5% but let’s be generous). Also consider that the feral DPS aren’t fully locked in on dealing damage either, as it does mechanics and uses utility to help the team too.
A more fair comparison would be between healers and feral druid against target dummies, as you can fully focus on just your damage there. Sadly, that’s data I don’t have available so I’ll settle for second best.
@Dunderkaggen
Okay, but skill, even partially, doesn’t fully affect DPS timing. Are you calculating 50% of the DPS if you’re not healing at all? Or 50% of the DPS while still healing the group? If it’s 50% DPS while still healing, then how much would it be if you stopped healing completely—around 80%?
He means 50% of a dps when not healing at all.
You have a log about this? Would be interesting to see.
When I presented this:
I went with runs that had absolute minimal healing, and therefore didn’t steal a lot of attention from dealing damage. I did that because I don’t have access to the best target dummy performance where no healing is required whatsoever.
If we fight a target dummy in single target where no healing is required I want ALL HEALERS to be able to deal 50% of what a DPS that plays equally well. To make it even more clear:
Against a target dummy, I want a perfectly played restoration shaman to do 500k dps, if a perfectly played feral druid do 1000k dps.
And I’ll reiterate:
I’m okay with the healer running out of mana eventually due to focusing so heavily on dealing damage, this buff doesn’t have to come for free.
I can’t post links, but I used the best healer damage logs from NW 10, and ignored the logs that had healers who respecced into a DPS spec during the run. Feel free to check them out.
I tried it, and i am far from perfect with perfect dps talents, got to ~440k over about 2 minutes. Single target.
It was yet another arbitrary number I used to make an example and clarify what I meant, as I still don’t have access to theoretical maximum dps for each spec.
If we look at logs for HC Ky’veza which I think is the closest we can get to a target dummy, we can see that feral druids can do 2195k dps, which still most likely isn’t played to perfection (even minor delay, or split seconds away from melee will impact dps in some extent). Thus you should (if we implement my proposal) be able to do about 1100k dps maximum.
AKA, 50%.
Sure well, every spec also healers have different damage profiles. Some are doing more AOE, some more single target.
Yeah, I know and have acknowledged that. I’m saying I believe all healers should be equally balanced in both single target and aoe. And that they should do 50% of an equally competent dps in both of those case.
What is and what isn’t is not what I’m discussing here.
Well, dps also are not. We have class diversity. So some are very good in priority damage, others on aoe, and others on cleave or 3/4 targets. And then we have the differences in sustain damages or bursts with different lengths of cooldowns…
Class diversity is a big plus to me.
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Nobody is wishing for class homogenization, just balance. I doubt everyone wants to be an enhancement shaman, but they do want enhancement shaman to perform in line with everyone else. That’s balance, not homogenization.
I also want to keep class diversity, but I don’t want imbalance to exist. If you think it’s good that some specs overpower others, that’s your opinion and it’s alright to have, although I believe it isn’t shared by many.
No i do not want to have overpowered classes. But i do not think we need homogenization on healer dps and with that abilities.
I feel like im repeating myself here.