Then you need to homogenizate classes.
And contradicting yourself.
I think you don’t understand what homogenize mean in this case.
Homogenizing shamans and monks would be to make them both play the exact same way. As in shamans now heal through doing damage in melee range, they have to keep up a buff such as ancient teachings, and they have 1 instant absorb spell and 1 instant heal+dispel spell.
I want class identity, for shamans to still be shamans, and monks still be monks. But I want numbers to be tweaked. That’s balancing, not homogenizing
The word you are looking for is Normalization.
Homogenization is everyone the same. Same spells, same utility, same everything.
Normalization means that everyone has the same mechanics, but executed in a different way.
One good example of what Normalization means is the mechanic of recovering mana during combat. Every healer has a mechanic. But they all execute in a different way. Monks have Mana Tea, Shamans Resurgence, ect…
And I agree with Normalizing mechanics. Every healer should be able to DPS like a MW and DPriest with out risking HPS performance.
How is what would change. MW would get ancient teachings. DPriest attonement. And RShamans (which is what I would like) would get a “every 3 healing spells get 1 DD spell instant cast off the GCD and vice versa”. The “dps weaving” mechanic. Druids would get something with shapeshifting… ect…
Again your playing a class designed fir close heals so theres that, end of the day its your choice to take that risk we all play differently, thats what makes us all different.
The bestband last reply im gnna post on this is you do you.
This! This is precisely what I’m asking for. It doesn’t have to be perfectly normalized, but I believe every healer should have VERY similar core mechanics. The balancing of it all I’ll be leaving to blizzard, but this is the idea.
This is exactly what i very much would hate.
And precisely what i meant with making the classes the same since you now even say it that the core mechanics should be similar. I want diversity like we now have.
Once again you’re mistaking it for homogenization. Do you hate having a damaging spell such as lava burst because monk also have a damaging spell such as rising sun kick?
Are those spells comparable now? How is this a similar core mechanic? RSK is one of your main healing spells, which you want to offset as often as possible so you get more/longer renewinmg mists running. And you use thunder focus tea to get a short cooldown on it so you will heal a lot with Chi-ji. (Thunder focus tea, chi-ji-, rsk, spin to win or tiger palm, rsk, envelop mist, bok, rsk, envelop mist).
But anyway; when the situation is already like what you want. Great.
Key word being similar, not identical. Sure RSK has more uses, thus making it unique ans not homogenized, but it’s still a main damaging ability, as is lava burst for shamans.
Thanks, I’m glad there’s one healer that can (almost) do what I envision. I’ll be satisfied when all healer can do that.
Ok. Then every spec is already similar because all healers have a dps button. Great! 
You’re not buffing healers in the way that healers need though… You’re putting another layer of skill on top. Just like saying “Give healers more CC” is not buffing them… It puts another layer of skill.
While for you, that seems to be running keys around 1% of the player base are running, seem to want a higher skill cap, you don’t consider how the ripple effect happens on lower keys.
You said it yourself… It’s perception, people know that they don’t need prot pally + disc in keys below 10… Even higher it’s not life or death, but! People still decline non-meta classes because that’s what the meta says.
So show casing healers doing 500k dps, will just mean people will only take high dps healers regardless of how needed it is, and if they don’t perform, well they will most likely get complaints and toxic rants.
And let’s be honest, it’s not like Blizzard will be able to perfectly tune all healers to perform equally… That means yet again, you will have classes like resto shaman in SL with earthquake legendary or vesper totem, that out performs due to XYZ, and then the meta has changed to only accepting the healers that perform exceptionally well dps wise, and back to declining healers that may not perform well in that regard
Well, the declining participation should be your indicator as to how well M+ is performing this season…
And yes, healers and tanks may have had it easier before, but that doesn’t really matter… If people don’t play, that means they aren’t enjoying the content.
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That’s another oversimplification, but I feel like this is hopeless explaining to you. You don’t want classes to be equally balanced, but I do. We just want different things, and that’s fine.
Giving healers more cc would definitely be a buff to their utility, albeit not their healing. Healers don’t really need buffs right now as all healers are clearing some really high keys, but I know that people want buffs anyway. That gets fixed in next season (at least in m+ enviroment) as blizzard nerf keys through the floor and make 12s the new 10s in terms of difficulty.
And I’ve said from the very beginning that this raises the skill ceiling, “adding another layer of skill” is just another way to phrase it.
All healer will be able to do equal dps if we go by my suggestion, so if you mean people will pick the healer with the best logs/m+ rating, then yes, people will pick the healer with the best performance. It other words, people will pick by the exact same standards as today, except they won’t favor any healer that’s inherently stronger in dealing damage.
True, there’s no disagreeing there, but I’m speaking theoretically, not practically. Theoretically it’s definitely possible to tune healers to perform equally. Practically you can get very close, but you’ll never reach true equality.
Participation rates always drop throughout the seasons though. I think Sosari on the us forums have posted more detailed graphs and made comparisons between seasons and participation rates so I won’t go to much into that, as that’s better discussed there.
I’m not looking to increase healer participation rates with this change, nor am I looking to decrease them. I just want to make them more fun, engaging, and rewarding for those that like the dps aspect of healers, whilst allowing players that want to play at a lower skill level still play at that skill level. Besides, I don’t see how this would drive people away from healing. If anything, it would make the abundance of DPS players consider trying the healer role, as the dps element now has more emphasis to it.
Especially on the US forums during for example shadowlands there were daily multiple new topics opened by healers that others demanded them to do more dps.
So yes it would bully healers away like it did in SL.
It actually think we already do have a quite nice damage potential. It is just that we do not have time for it since we are occupied with tons of other things.
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But is it actually buffing them? imo adding complexity is not a buff.
And my point was more, that you’re asking for more dps ceiling not output, to healers and calling it a buff. That is imo not a buff in general terms.
But that is not the same as “buffing” them.
If you’re only making it possible for a very few people to utilize fully yet the expectation is that everyone should be there happens, it’s not a buff.
Had you asked for a flat damage output, that would be a buff. Not necessarily a needed or a good one.
Look at arcane mage… When utilized correctly, does very good dps, but a lot of players do not understand the rotation enough to utilize it.
Thats just utopia though… Some healers do better aoe damage, which are more suited in some dungeons than others, while some have higher burst healing.
No, people will revert to doing what they currently do. Look at what the “Healer tier guide” says, and pick from that. They wont consider what healers are actually needed, and then yes, we are back to square 1 but we added another reason to flame healers in lower keys on top.
So inherently we just made it more stressful for healers with 0 benefit apart from more joy to the < 1% player base
Not at all. If you practially could get very close, we wouldn’t have 1-2 healers completely outpacing the 5 other specs and usually 1-2 healers that can’t even keep up.
Theoretically if they baselined stuff, yes. But they haven’t. And in a “go go go!” setting, you will have certain toolkits that out weigh others.
Indeed. But again… Looking at the participation you should be able to see the vast difference and the popularity of M+ currently… Or… The lack of.
If you however just want to neglect that participation is abolished this season compared to previous and but it as “well healers and tanks had it way too nice before!” well sure. But that doesn’t change reality.
But this is it… You are not making it more fun for the majority… I again point to the participation…
I truly don’t understand how you can see an extreme drop of participation in +10 and above keys, and M+ in general, with multiple sources talking about the problems of M+ in TWW, and still go “Well, I don’t get how adding more complexity will drive away players??”
Healers can’t keep up and are already pulling the short end of the stick. So many things to combat already, and you want to increase the ceiling for the < 1%
But we are going in circles atm, as many times as I’ve tried to say this would probably just make a new meta and new expectations for healers, you seem to just shift away.
But I would encourage you to actually consider why healers are already quitting and how giving them even MORE responsibility wouldn’t make it more “fun” for them, quiet opposite.
I gave my opinion and you have yours and thats fine
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Hits the nail on the head for me.
This suggestion will just lead to healers being expected to meet more ridiculous DPS numbers by the meta-slaves, and making it more miserable.
Just reading through this thread I don’t even want try healing.
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If we’re going against by suggestion and buff m+ dungeons in order to counter the suggested healer dps buff then sure, I can see that people would complain over healers not doing their part. If we follow my suggestion and buff the healer dps and leave dungeons unchanged (they’re nerfing m+ by a ton anyway) there would be no change compared with how it is today, except for the healers that fully utilize their class that would be making dungeons 5% easier. If we follow my suggestion precisely, the ones who complain about healers not doing more than they previously did would be the ones that are upset that they don’t get a 5% carry, and they’re not worth listening too anyway.
That’s a great opinion for you to have, and I share it to some extent. But I want it to be better.
I’ll use an extreme example to make a point.
Healers are now given a new cc: OMNIPOTENT STUN.
- OMNIPOTENT STUN stuns any enemy npc for 10 minutes (boss and regular enemies).
Sure, we’re adding complexity as healers now have another ability to use, but if they use it properly (in this case if they use it at all) they make the fight easier, thus it’s a buff.
Raising the ceiling is absolutely a buff, for those that can reach towards that ceiling. Let’s use another extreme example to make the point.
Let’s say I’ll play an MW monk, and I’m extremely bad at it. I only know how to use soothing mist, nothing else. My brain simply can’t fathom that anything else can be used.
We add a new talent that replaces enveloping mist with Ninja punch.
- Ninja punch does 50% of enemy hp.
Since I don’t undertand how to use anything except soothing mist, I don’t understand how to use Ninja punch either. It is a massive buff for players above my skill level who can reach closer to the skill ceiling, but I remain where I am, spamming soothing mist.
Yes, but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t strive for it. We aim to have absolutely 0 traffic incidents when designing anything regarding traffic, even though we know it’s impossible to achieve. The goal is to get as close to it as possible.
This just means that healers can’t be fixed, as people will focus on what some guide says is best instead of thinking for themselves. Should we just stop striving for equal performance because of that?
You can, I’m not saying we are very close. Besides, no healer is currently bad per se as all healers are able to reach 3.5k, which is way above what blizzard balances around anyway. But sure, some healers are worse than others, which is part of what I’m adressing.
Rewards currently stop at 10 so I believe that’s one major reason for the drop off. Keys get substantially more difficult at 12 so that’s another point for a major drop in players. I’ll agree with m+ having a bunch of problems, but to say that giving healers the choice of adding more complexity and rewarding mastering that complexity is a bad change is just silly.
Most people think their role is pulling the short end of the stick wether they’re tanks, healers, or dps.
Tanks feel the burden of knowing the routes, mechanics, and dynamics of dungeons and classes inside out.
Healers feel the burden of keeping everyone alive (and in low keys, covering for peoples mistakes/misplays).
DPS feel the burden of long queues and playing the decline simulator.
Yes, this still leaves the 99% with the same room to play in as before, but the 1% (more like 5-10% but whatever) can make more use of the room.
Meta will always exist as long as information is easily available and people are dumb enough blindly mimic instead of using critical thinking. This suggested change isn’t meant to solve the meta problem, nor make it worse. Stop projecting that I’ve intended to fix something that I haven’t even cared to bring up.
I have considered many reasons, the major reasons I can see are:
- Healing requires a lot of proactive gameplay, rather than reactive, to succeed in higher level of content.
- Healing is an ungrateful task as players immediatly comments on your mistakes (because people die), but doesn’t seem to notice when you play well. (Low key level DPS mistakes are so much more forgiving. You missed your burst window? Okay, boss took 20 seconds longer to die, big deal.)
- Healing a bad group demands a ridiculous overperformance of the healer, whereas when healing a good group the healer just tags along for the ride.
- Healers have to watch several health bars whilst doing mechanics (this is usually coupled with the perception that dps/tanks only have to watch the enemy health bar while doing mechanics, which is only true for bad players).
I can’t recall anyone ever saying “Ugh, I loathe healing, I do way to much damage.” Or “Ugh, I loathe healing, players expect me to do something when there’s nothing to heal”. But maybe that’s just me.
Absolutely, not aiming to convince anyone here. I just want to understand different perspectives and hopefully learn something along the way, that might even lead to me changing my own perspective. I’ve had some great insights along the way that had me tweak my orginal idea, such as when Zeline suggested that increased damage comes at the cost of increased resources. That’s a great compromise!
True among those who are looking for carries and those pushing the highest level of keys I guess (although players in the 18+ key range most certainly already expect their healer to use their dps abilities when/if there’s downtime).
That’s cool, then this idea of rewarding optimal gameplay just isn’t your cup of tea. Play how you like.
Again, for me, adding complexity is not a buff, even though it technically is. Practically it’s not. Emphasis on imo.
This is again, the key words, which I addressed multiple times.
But then imo, we should strive for healers being equal in their main objective which is healing rather than striving for equality in a sub-role.
Equal performance in dps? when their main objective is healing? Absolutely. This would be like trying to balance the dps specs around self healing rather than dps.
So theoretically. You claimed you practically could, which you currently can not.
Mate… I’m not asking you to compare below 10 to above 10… Im asking you to compare seasons.
It’s not a choice, if it creates the meta. That’s like saying people wanting to push keys actually have a choice between the hero talents. No. They technically have, but if you don’t want to get the negative output you have to play what and how performs.
That’s absolutely not true 
And again, this probably just shows that you either wont or can’t acknowledge the lower end of the M+ spectrum.
Oh… wait… Why are they playing the que simulator?? Because lack of healers and tanks… Thanks.
These two things… People will go for meta…
And how you read:
And go:
Is beyond belief.
Im literally saying it will just SHIFT the reason of the meta. Never claimed you tried to fix it. So instead of putting words in my mouth, follow your own words?
Really?.. Cus so far you’ve spend your time refusing the points brought forward…
Excibit A above xD
But hey, if you can see so many people in the thread being against it, and still not take anything from it, it’s fair
Gl!
So In addition to doing proactive gameplay , surrounded by ungrateful lot , while watching multiple health bars running in different directions like chickens , you also want to add watching the boss health bar and a dps meter at that .
And you don’t understand why people don’t want that ?
How many heads do you need to have to process all that information ?
Disc Priest works , because the healing is mostly automated via attornment . And even than sometimes you need a split personality when you are forced to focus heal . Do you want all healers to be automated as well ?
Here is my counter suggestion .
Remove all healers and tanks . All roles are DPS that can heal and tank . Everyone is responsible for their own health .
Alright, I’ll buy that. We define buffs in different ways.
Not once have I said that I want healing the be imblanced. First and foremost healing should be balanced well enough (we still won’t achieve perfection), and then other aspects of the role such as healer dps should get attention.
Read above. Also, there’s currently an effort to give dps specs an equal balance when it comes to defensives, but the primary focus is on balancing their damage.
I practically can run for 5 miles, it doesn’t mean that I currently do run for 5 miles. It’s just logic, but we can math to describe it too. You theoretically can unmix a mixed bucket of paint, but due to the randomness factor it’s utterly impossible practically.
So it is a choice. You can choose to play sub-optimal or choose to play what’s optimal and achieve a higher performance. Playing what’s sub-optimal will allow you to be wherever you are today, wether that is 2000 or 3000 rating, whereas playing in a way that’s optimal will get you 5% further (no, I’m not showcasing the math a fourth time, if anyone wants to look through the math they can read the thread).
Yes it is. Tanks whine that tanking is too hard, healers whine that healing is too hard, and DPS whine that dps is too hard. Everybody whines.
Okay, I misinterpreted you, that’s my bad.
I’m not refusing them, I’m giving them counter-arguments. You even decided to conviently not quote the part where I acknowledged how Zeline had a greater counter-argument against my suggestion, which made me tweak the idea.
Just because I don’t agree with you, doesn’t mean I refuse to consider your perspective. I’ve considered everything everyone has said so far (well, maybe not the knuckleheads that says “healers only heal, dps only dps, tanks only tank”), and I’ve adjusted my opinions and ideas along the way. I haven’t heard or seen enough to see that this change would do more harm than good though, even if a lot of people here are opposed to it.
If your idea of “take anyting from it”, is to leave all rational thought behind and go with what the majority says without questioning then sure, I haven’t learned a thing.
Yes, for those that would like it.
I do, and they don’t need to make use of the buffs I suggest (unless they’re pushing way above rewards, somewhere around 3.3k and upwards).
I’m good with one, but I understand that not everyone will be. Which is fine, they can still play like they always did. Nothing changes for them.
You mean they don’t have to track group members health bars if atonement is up or if they need to reapply it? Or they don’t have to track offensive abilities to heal cause that’s automated and they don’t have to click offensive abilities? I don’t think I understand your point here.
I don’t know a single healer that currently is, so no? I want healers to play just like everyone else.
Dang, and people thought I was drastic when I reduced the importance of roles dps by 1%. You want to step away from the trinity entirely? Good luck with that.
While I could consider it, it severely would diminish group content. You’d just have people playing individually, but lumped together. Basically make everything into delves?
So what is the difference between theoretically and practically for you?
If you want to use that example you need to never have run a 5 mile before. Then it becomes you theoretically can run a 5 mile.
The game has never been equal output. So no, it will remain a “theoretical” possibility.
Again, so essentially not a choice.
If your roof contained asbestos you could just leave it, the choice is there, but your house as a cause would be worthless and you in harm, so essentially not really a choice. Same goes here.
Me stating the participation has declined compared to previous seasons and you meeting it with “Participation always fluctuates” is not a counter argument. You then proceeded to shift the discussion to “They speak about it on the US forums. Its better suited there”.
Participation is a pretty good indicator of how the season is going, and considering the numbers are worse than a filler season 4 in DF, I would argue people are already not enjoying tanking or healing…
If that is what you got from it, I can return the favor…
If your suggestion is to just cater to the top < 1% and say screw all the noobs, then its a good idea
See how it is, when we go to those lengths of putting words into each others mouth?