do you know how RDF even works? it takes you and 4 other people from random servers and puts you into the dungeon, no traveling no way to say if you will ever see them again and no reason for Bob to ask Lisa if she wants to come seeing as he is a tank and will at most have to wait 5 min to get into the dungeon while whispering people on his friends list to find someone that wants to come might take way longer, at most he will ask in his guild and then go straight to the RDF
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The RDF idea itself is good and improves WoW.
What u are writing are the implementation detailsā¦ RDF could be just server limited and without the instant port to dungeon. The idea itself is good and improves WoW.
Then both worlds would get their piece and everyone would be happyā¦ at least to some extend.
But the RDF is the name of a system that we know what it looks like, if the RDF would be changed to be server bound and without teleportation you would basically have the same system as the one we got on the beta but without anyone having to click any more buttons to invite people, so a bit more fair seeing as no one can exclude people for stupid reasons. But not everyone would do that anyways, for example I would pick the person with the less popular class or spec, or the person who just reached the level where they can enter the dungeon so it would remove a chance to be a nice person as well. In reality I would have nothing against a version like the one you described at all but it wouldnt be able to be called RDF because that would bring unneeded criticism because its not like the retail one
Doing SHH in p1/2 is even worse, since outside of raiding guilds which needed it for attunes, no blue geared casuals would manage to clear that not even mention doing it on time ā¦
Its end of TBC, you can literally buy S2/S3 gear and it will outperform T4/T5 and people cant finish things like SHH SL Arca or BF ā¦
I met my guild on retail in RDF and spent whole legion with them ā¦ sure its not exactly 2022, but its close enough ā¦
You mean like the social ones you are in, that will fall apart the moment RDF is introduced into the game and they realize its convenience not social interaction that kept them around ?
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I wouldnt ever belive that a pvp player would be able to get what we are actually talking about but I will try to explain it in a way you might get, a real guild is like a arena team its only as strong as its weakest link, now there are 2 ways to deal with the weakest link ether you kick that player and replace them or you try to help them improve, in the case of a well functioning guild that is done by helping people get their gear and to run dungeons even if the dungeons are a cake walk there is something to be learned from it. Dont know really how you would help someone improve in arena seeing as I dont play arena. In a dysfunctional guild you expect everyone to just fix everything themself and most of the pve players who are complaining about the non inclusion of the RDF have brought forwards them self that their guilds almost never help with dungeons even if they might āneedā a item from it.
And once again my guild is in rather healthy state even though we had the misfortune of having to create it right around the time ZA launched and therefore had to pick through the few new players who were starting then to even be able to get a raid roster. Therefore we are a fair bit behind so we look way more casual than we are. No guilds will outright die from no RDF but there will be less people who are actual casuals who join a guild as a social who might later turn from being casual to more dedicated players.
this thread has no pointā¦the reason for rfd being removed has been stated by blizzard. nothing ANYONE says will change their business model or tactics =(
Damn thats long, got my food cold again 
I am running under one of the biggest gdkp groups on tbc, and since our glorious liege is already getting list of requests for power leveling, we are absolutely going to function during WotLK too ā¦
I have several SWP chars geared chars, and I play mainly tanks/heals ā¦ so I have no issue with weak links ā¦
But just because I have no problems, doesnt mean other people have no problems, and just because I have no problems, doesnt mean other people should be denied help ā¦
Ill tell you for example my personal approach:
I hate leeching, I dont like being dead weight to group and a liability ā¦
So point #1 I have recently finished another batch of alts (1dps, 1 heal, 1tank), on some of them I bought BoEs from AH instantly getting raid level equipment ā¦ I could also just pay gdkp, but I dont like when people play the game for me, or I could bring it into some casual guild (or even my main guilds) drain them and leave, but as I said I dont like leeching ā¦
So instead whenever I have some time, I log on these new alts, and spam for hours to create groups and raids for myself, often taking undergeared ppl and newbies (since T6 people will leave instantly when they see leader is blue geared)
Absolutely insane to do anything without group of friends, or community backing you up, simple starter heroics like AC, ramps, its hours of spamming in chat for single run, lot of people leave instantly the moment they see you have low gear, even if they have only slightly better one ā¦
My tank has MGT HC gear on it and ShSun rep items, yet people will rather spam for hour for tank, just to get better gear, then do run with me, when that char clearly did that HC several times already ā¦
Second point number #F
I am social person, I dont wont to enslave people to do my bidding, unlike most āsocial peopleā here ā¦
Do you know what a pain in the dongliz is it doing hundred runs of Arca for one stupid enchant, those eredar boys dont even have to spawn there, and especially after you did it on dozen other chars ā¦ theres hundred other people who did it on dozen of other chars too in my guild, I could ask any of them and we could do hundred runs in single afternoon ā¦
But I dont want to abuse friendship, to put them through the same pain they already went through hundred times over, and waste their time ā¦
So here I am spamming day in day out ā¦
If you ever went outside of your little community bubble, you might even notice how garbage the situation is, and that removing RDF is just going to leave it dying ā¦
If you are in a community, RDF wont change anything for you, it will actually be even better for you, since if you have only 2-3 people from your guild, you can just que and get insta group in RDF ā¦
If your community suffers after RDF, then there was no social interaction anyway, it was just bunch of people who kept you around for the convenience and would instantly ditch your whole "Social Interactionā¢ " the moment they got better offer ā¦
Yes. The ones that play WoW for the social aspect that will over time realize that the game isnāt what they like anymore so they donāt play it anymore.
Itās like saying āYou mean the Call of Duty players, that stop playing the moment Call of Duty turns into a Formula 1 racing gameā.
Yes. No hit, Sherlock?! People stop playing a game when the thing that made them enjoy the game in the first place, stops existing.
TL;DR: Duh!
So the ones that dont care about social interaction then ā¦ thanks, you need to either get fewer bullets or more legs ā¦ 
and
dont really fit together now do they. But I will ignore it for now, GDKP community is not even close to the same as a properly functioning guild, a GDKP community is literally a community formed around people wanting to maximize their profit/progression nothing in the concept of GDKP is in any way shape or formed geared towards helping people out.
And thats really good of you to do I do the same thing but not because people leave when they see my char but because I seek out the once that need that bit of help.
Easiest way to get those groups going is by basicly applying marketing strategies, āLFM Arca HC come and kick the stupid AQ bosses butt while having a easy timeā there you go you have a msg that instantly will give you a higher chance of people wanting to join than āLF 2 DPS 1 H Arca HCā would ever give you.
I know the pain because Im the one that offer people the help with those things, I dont in any way abuse my contacts if I need anything, first I ask in guild if anyone is at all interested in joining what ever, might throw in a please help me finally get that trinket or what ever if people know I have been going for something for a while, and I usually get at least 1 response, then I check with people I have helped a lot outside my guild if they might want to tag along, and then I go into the chat and look for people usually have a full group within a few min of posting in the chat. No āenslavementā no āabuseā just asking for a favor not in any way shape or form actually feeling entitled to it.
Like I said I dont actually completely fill most of my group with only guild members.
As a tank it would be the same even without a guild, wow have always been lacking tanks for 5 man content also been to a lesser extent lacking healers but not even close to the same. Having something make things go quicker and with less need to apply any social skills at all would be bad for the game in the long run though, we have seen where that leads. If they would do something like they do with flying in retail (where its locked for off completely for the first patch or 2) I wouldnt be fighting against it because its the beginning of a expansion where most new or returning players actually come and thats when its important that they see the social structures they have to chose from, be it that they chose GDKP communitys and get pressured into buying gold at least to begin with so they can get the gear so they can earn the gold later or be it into a actual guild that have those social elements some of us actually mostly play this game for.
Its not that we will suffer its that we will have a lesser chance of showing people something other than the āI need this item now now nowā mentality that is infecting this game.
Wow. Learn to read. Here Iāll highlight it for you:
Here! I help you interpret it too and explain cause and effect.
There are ALWAYS reasons to leave the game for some people. Getting bored, no more time, financial reasons, the closest friends left the game or maybe people just die. Itās sad, but it happens.
So even in the most social of guilds, they are destined to lose players over time.
Now with the RDF, the social aspect OUTSIDE of guilds will die out. So there are no more new social gamers to make up for the people that leave.
Iād love to let you do the math, but I have no trust in your abilities there anymore.
25+2-1=26
25+0-1=24
The first number is supposed to be the number of people in the guild.
The second number that is added, is the amount of new players, people find outside of the guild. Probably in dungeons, as that is the most effective way the game brings us in contact with other players.
The third number, the one that is subtracted, is the players that leave the game for various reasons.
The first equation is meant to be without the RDF. The second is with the RDF.
As you can see, if you can read basic arabic numbers, in one case the Guild shrinks, and in one case the guild grows.
Iād let you try to figure out which one is which, but just to be sure Iāll give you a hint.
26 is a bigger number than 24.
Now let this take place about every month. That means in one case the guild is shrinking every month in one case (the latter, mentioning it so you donāt get confused) and it grows in another case (Thatās the first one.)
If you can follow me so far, here is another thing that happens with shrinking numbers: Many people donāt always play at the same time.
That means they have limited opportunities to play together. And with less and less people opportunites to play with guild mates also shrink. At that point the number of people leaving a guild will grow. And if that number grows, it does not mean the guild grows. It means the guild shrinks. Because then you are subtracting even bigger numbers.
I would try to just call it a snowball effect. But since you seem to struggle grasping basic concepts, I should probably avoid such terms as to not confuse you.
This means the guild will break apart faster and faster. And you know why? Because there is no social aspect OUTSIDE of the guild anymore to fill the ranks of actually functioning and social guilds.
And here another thing, just to remind you, because Iām pretty sure you already forgot what I read from the start.
āOver timeā is pretty much the opposite of āā¦the moment X happensā. So I did in fact tell you that you were incorrect in your assumption that it happens the way you described it.
#never listing to the consuming audience.
Thatās why retail is rolling so well.
The whole situation is caused by a missunderstanding who wants to play classic and who wants to play wotlk. Itās not the same pool of people and all forum Theards, Youtube Videos, reddits posts prove that the majority woltk community wants to have df in like a 80:20 ratio.
The red-haired grandma isnāt just doing her job well if she does not understand this. 
Also, why is no one talking about the ditched rogue? Why do Lisa and Bob value gear more then the social aspect of having a rogue? Perhaps he is funny. Perhaps he is cool. I bet he is otherwise he would not play rogue. And how many times will he be ditched again? DF offers him a group he would never be able to join due to his class. There is your āsocial Aspectā. F Bob and Lisa.
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Also disclaimer: I personally believe GDKP is absolutely garbage cancerous trash that should be instantly banned.
I am PvP main, but I also enjoy PvE if it isnt boring wipefest ā¦ I met these guys through discord, they were fun to be around and could clear raid wipeles and without waiting hour before each boss, only after getting official inv into guild, I learned they are GDKPs ā¦
Short version, I am pvp tryhard, ofc I am pve tryhard too xD and nothing tries harder then people who are getting paid for being good
Thats also one of the things, you can be online, social and in contat 24/7 without even being online ingame, their main discord is hub of activity, people are constantly flexing their times, gold pots, racing each other, different primary raid groups are joking and competing each other, memeing the hell out of wow, our poor glorious captain general and each other ā¦
I think even after I quit wow after wotlk, I will still stay in contact with some of them through steam or discord ā¦
But this mentality is already in the game, and wont be going anywhere if you remove RDF or if you keep it in the game ā¦ why do I comment SHH/BF/Arc every time? Because SP with its BiS caster trinket has 54664164163 active groups at any given time, and you can find group for that instantly ā¦ same with MGT HC trinket for example ā¦
I have commented it on hundred other posts, we already have the ācorruptedā version of game ā¦ if blizz wants to fix their game, they should add changes into next expansion, because noone new will magically come to older xpacs ā¦
Hell if blizz decided to keep the game less casual friendly (this is also funny joke, because compared to other mmos at the time, WoW was the casual noob one) and not add RDF originally and create something like M+, I would probably be all for it ā¦
15 years ago tho ā¦ not now when the fall has already happened, and its either slow + toxic or fast + toxic ā¦
congrats one less shoe you have to buy
Here is a secret, the majority of players dont go to the forums, or reddit, or watch the youtubers, and they are most likely not giving if RDF is in or not a thought untill the launch day.
Indeed. Only the experts (
) join those platforms and all these experts say itās a bad idea. The rest will hate it and never communite to someone besides their friends and then silently quit.
And then they get icq messages from their friends 2024 that they finally patched df and they resub.
Selling the same game 3 times. Brillant
Iāve run a lot of shh, more than most. First for levelling 68-70, then heroic for spellstrike head pattern, and then nearly a 100 of heroic and/or normal runs for savagery. I lost count somewhere after 55.
Anyway you would be surprised how many rets or healer palas will roll need for the figurine. Most of them in fact unless itās ML. Just a couple of weeks before I finally got my pattern Iāve seen a 67 healer pala win it over a decently geared prot who allegedly was on his 22nd run for it.
I have no doubt there wont be any significant problems running wrath normals for the first month or two, and wrath heroics for 2-6 months from release. Thatās not really what RDF is for though, even if it would be convenient even then. It is for all the other dungeons and times in the expansion. For all the old world dungeons you have virtually no chance of making and for the wrath ones once only alts really need them.
ā¦ until later, if they do not read here, they would not expect RDF at launch.
That surprises me a whole lot tbh even more so that people dont just get them self a blue set of tanking gear and offer to tank it if they really want the trinket that bad.
And I have said that I personally would have nothing against the RDF for the lvl 15-70 dungeons at launch with ether everything coming in at like phase 3 or a gradual releas of having the 70-80 dungeons (normal) from phase 2 and then heroics in phase 3 to somewhat emulate that it wasnt in from the beginning but maybe not pushing it back as far as it was then, and then they could do something similar in cata (if they go that rout again). Then we would both have what I want out of āno-RDFā (thats actually not my position as you might already know) and what the people that want to level their alts through dungeon spam wants.
My āuselessā guild cleared SWP as server second on release week (server first was EU first world second Avatar) and has been farming it with 2 full raid groups since week 3. It also has very active discord where thereās a funny meme to comment on or theorycraft discussion to join almost any time of the day. But it has very few people interested in outgeared dungeons before noon on weekdays when I tend to have free time to run 5mans, so it is actually useless 
Look, if I had a choice between leaving my guild raid team and never running a 5 man in Classic again, it wouldnāt even be a choice. 5mans are an afterthought to be done in anonlymous random groups.