Is the Horde unredeemable at this point?


(Zakkaru) #21

Here are some funny quotes from Vanilla racial descriptions:

“Bound to the iron will of the tyrant Lich King, the vast undead armies of the Scourge seek to eradicate all life on Azeroth. Led by the banshee Sylvanas Windrunner, a group of renegades broke away from the Scourge, and freed themselves of the Lich King’s domination. Known by some as the Forsaken, this group fights a constant battle not only to retain their freedom from the Scourge, but also to slaughter those who would hunt them as monsters. With Sylvanas as their banshee queen, the Forsaken have built a dark stronghold beneath the ruins of Lordaeron’s former capital city. This hidden ‘Undercity’ forms a sprawling labyrinth that stretches beneath the haunted woods of the Tirisfal Glades. Though the very land is cursed, the zealous humans of the Scarlet Crusade still cling to their scattered holdings, obsessed with eradicating the undead and retaking their homeland. Convinced that the primitive races of the Horde can help them achieve victory over their enemies, the Forsaken have entered an alliance of convenience. Harboring no true loyalty for their new allies, they will go to any lengths to ensure their dark plans come to fruition. As one of the Forsaken, you must eliminate any who pose a threat to the new order – human, undead, or otherwise."

And the Darkspear description:

The vicious Jungle Trolls, who populate the numerous islands of the South Seas, are renowned for their cruelty and dark mysticism. Barbarous and superstitious, the wily Trolls carry a seething hatred for all other races.

One tribe, however, was forced to overcome its prejudices when it encountered the Orc Warchief, Thrall, and his mighty Horde. The Trolls of the Darkspear tribe, long since exiled from their ancestral lands in Stranglethorn Vale, were nearly destroyed by a band of aquatic Murlocs, but Thrall and the Horde managed to save them. In return the grateful Trolls swore an oath of eternal allegiance to the Horde.

Led by the cunning Shadow Hunter, Vol’jin, the Darkspear Trolls now make their home in Durotar along with their Orcish allies. Their village, named after their fallen tribal elder, Sen’jin, lies along the eastern coast of the harsh, rocky land. The Darkspear tribe also occupies tracks within the nearby jungles of the Echo Isles.

As part of the Horde, the Trolls have extended their loyalty to the mighty Tauren, but they have little trust for the manipulative Forsaken, whom they believe will visit only misery and strife upon their allies.

Ekhem…

This is another remainder why Legion intro was awfully painful, for Darkspear to leave reigns of the Horde to screecher. :confused: out of all people.


#22

“I never trusted you, but the script demands I make you warchief now!”


(Zakkaru) #23

Pretty much, yes. It was this balant.


#24

“Continuity exists to enhance a story, not to tie the hands of creators.”

Well said Wimbert.

But i think we could have the red version of the Alliance, even a perfectly made clone of it, replacing the current Horde.
It would still not work.
Why ?
Because, if the intention is to write a chaotic oponent for the Blue Alliance, the Red Alliance would have:

  • Anduin killed or moved far far away from his faction, as Thrall was in Catclysm.
  • Jaina doing her worst acts as every character related to the Alliance that came to join the Horde, in example: the Blood Elves.
  • Genn going full berserk mode in Anduin’s absence.
    Example: Garrosh in Cata when Thrall was away.
  • All remaining leaders of the Alliance like Tyrande, Gelbin Mekkatorque and the Council of Three Hammers reduced to a follower role to who ever chaotic character would succeed Anduin and by the way it would be someone chosen by Anduin as well.
    That’s the Horde racial leaders in BfA.

It’s useless to discuss any kind of political situation for the Horde when it is crystal clear that Activision Blizzard will never want to change the current Horde description.
Got to keep that sweet hatred pouring up in every corner of the story after all this is WARcraft right ?
So the Alliance players hate the Horde ?
They want the Horde erradicated ?
Activision Blizzard can pat their backs after all I think that’s exactly what they want.

Just see Garrosh Hellscream, a character that wasn’t very much popular, for people who liked Thrall. Activision took him down, to put Sylvanas years after and kill Vol’Jin in the process as Cairne death in Cata wasn’t enough …
So we can agree nothing changed, because that’s the narrative Activision Blizzard love.

From the three racial leaders that represented the Horde in Warcrafty 3, we have in BfA:

  • Thrall was in exile:
  • Vol’Jin is dead.
  • Cairne is dead.

Only Sylvanas was eligible out of the 4 original leaders from Vanilla, Vol’Jin could had chosen Baine or Lor’themar, but again the plot conviniently wrote his decision to be changed by a unknow entity that whispered him, in his hour of death …

Cheers.


#25

Do they? Really, on the forums I get the feeling that you can have a much greater consensus that the story is horrible than that the Horde is bad. Little by little the blame is shifting from the faction to the authors. And I do think that might be close to mainstream now.

So I’ll always assume, in any thread that is directed at the future, that they can and will do better from now on. Because else there really isn’t anything to speculate about. In bad writing anything can happen, and nothing at all matters.


Teldrassil, Undercity will they be restored ? Who's next on the list ?
#26

Imagine Blizz writers sitting together over a couple of beers, planning for a “faction war” addon that brings the players on both sides closer together in shared hatred for the writers :smiley: Mission accomplished!


(Blunderhoof) #27

Wait…does that mean……Sylvanas is one of the chief writers?! REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE


#28

Yep. There it is. The masterplan, the “greater good” :wink:


(Destruct) #29

Liadrin gets escorted or talked to by the paladin character of yours. You are/were still Highlord and she essentially broke neutrality and turned off her brain to kill Alliance.

She gets brought to cathedral to be shamed first by priest, the Silver hand and Turalion before being redeemed. But the Alliance and the Argent Crusade/Silver Hand immetdiatly start protecting the borders of Quel’thalas as a sign of good will. Quel’thalas can also no longer refuse High Elves from visiting purely because they refused to siphon mana from living creatures in the past.

Thinking about the last sentence, why not have High Elves retake windrunner spire and surrounding as a capital? Afterall the living sisters are both Alliance and Sylvanas is just a walking corpse nobody wants around anyhow.


#30

Ok.
I dont get what this has to do with my post but funny?


(Destruct) #31

It’s the phase 1 part. Since Liadrian went from neutrality to warmongering general of the Horde. Forcing the Silver Hand to join the Alliance in the war.


#32

Of course the Horde is redeemable.

  • Purge extremist elements…most of the Forsaken it seems. Too gleefully using the Blight.
  • Sylvanas must die and be cursed for as long as people remember whom the Banshee Queen was. There is no escaping this fact for a proper redemption that isn’t just deus ex machina/handwave.
  • Fight to the death with anyone in the Alliance holding major grudges in several pitched battles.
  • Peace settlement once people get sick of all the death.
  • Baine becomes Warchief only in the situation that the Alliance becomes led by a warmonger. At which point, it becomes easier for the Horde redemption when the Alliance are out committing lots of evils.
  • We stop Saurfang from making cinematics. Permanently.

Personal request:

  • Liadrin disappears mysteriously. We -really- are better off without her. The Alliance don’t want her, her very existence mocks the name ‘Horde Paladin’ and I’m not sure even the Ebon Blade want her at this point in time.

#33

The order class factions disbanded long before the war started. And Turalyon clearly was never neutral to begin with. It was just natural liadrin would return to the kingdom that is her home and fight for it.

Liadrin triggering all male human Paladins and those who disguise as fake Tauren warchiefs is the best reason to keep her. :slight_smile:


(Keydiam) #34

Let’s ask a better question: Why did we end up in this spot in the first place?

But, yeah they will be redeemed. You know how the orcs defend themselves? (Or better how Blizzard presents it to us.)

“Our ancestors told us to massacre all draenei, r*** their women, and burn down children! We didn’t want to but well…”

“No we didn’t want to do the same thing with Stormwind and the human kingdoms! It was the Burning Legion and the demonic corruption!”

“No, we didn’t want to start a world war under Garrosh! Obviously most of us fought against him (Blizz pls retcon) and his tyrannical rule even though only Thrall appeared during the rebellion and four grunts at the end of the Siege of Orgrimmar!”

“Sorry, we didn’t want to burn down Teldrassil and put thousands of people including children to the torch! It was somehow N’zoth all along!”

The last two statements work for the entire current Horde. BfA has done something interesting: It turned Daelin Proudmoore into a completely reasonable man, even though the game tries its hardest to show him as in the wrong.

The faction conflict has to end permanently. It’s pure poison for the story. Create PvP-zones as much as you want, but detach them from the overall plot. Make it clear that they only exist for gameplay purposes.


(Araphant) #35

The better question is whether the plot is unredeemable at this point.


(Zarao) #36

Of course it will be redeemed. In the end, it’ll all be Sylvanas fault alone.

It also validated Grommash initial approach regarding the Draenei on the AU. :blush:

But yeah, jokes and memes aside, I think that arguing that BfA made Daelin look reasonable is quite a stretch. Specially now that his daughter is actively working alongside the orc that led the faction when he wanted to destroy it.


#37

Thrall was raised by humans and is to this day one of only two orc’s who seem to not glorify war.
Being the execption to the rule doesnt redeem your race.


(Zarao) #38

Being it’s leader and the one that called the shots at that time, makes all the difference.
Daelin declared war on the lone leader willing to give humans the peace they wanted.

Saying that he is being portrayed as having the reasonable approach, when Thrall and the likes of Saurfang are again on a dominant position and can influence everyone under them, is again, a stretch.


#39

Why do you believe that.

From my point of view:
Without thrall holding the horde leash they just become violent monsters again.
Meaning thrall is the only reason the horde arent monsters.
And as nice as thrall is sparing a race of bloodthirsty monsters because there current mortal leader is nice doesnt fix the problem.

Daelin words:
They will always be monsters have been proven true by warlords of dreanor, cataclysm and battle for azaroth.


(Qbi) #40

High elves where already allowed to visit after the sunwell was reignited.

this only ended during war.

Void elves for understandable reasons are not.