Is the Horde unredeemable at this point?

Lore Story
41

“Can your blood atone for genocide, orc? Your Horde killed countless innocents with its rampage across Stormwind and Lordaeron. Do you really think you can just sweep all that away and cast aside your guilt so easily? No, your kind will never change, and I will never stop fighting you.”

He said this in the aftermath of the Third War. Years later the Horde destroyed Gilneas, rampaged across the entire northern part of the Eastern Kingdoms, burned down Ashenvale, and nuked Theramore. Only a year later we saw that the orcs don’t even need demon blood to become bloodthirsty monstrosities. And now we have Teldrassil and Brennadam.

You know I am actually with you: It is sad that Daelin looks like a reasonable man, because he was clearly intended to be in the wrong. That was the whole idea behind the entire campaign. That he was stuck in the past and couldn’t see the new future.

Yet, when I look at the story of WoW I only see the destruction the Horde has brought. We have Thrall who grew up with humans and Saurfang someone from the old guard who has seen everything. And even then latter one happily went along with the entire campaign in Ashenvale and only raised his voice when Teldrassil burned. Still he was fine with waging an offensive war. I could even bring up the grunts in Ashran who have a dialogue where they say, that they don’t even know why they’re here and only want to kill the Alliance. One year after Orgrimmar.

Thrall is the only exception to this (and Drek’thar. But, only because he has seen everything and is in a similar boat like Saurfang), and as I said he grew up with humans. If the message is that orcs can only become peaceful under the influence of humans then it’s a pretty bad message.

So really: How can Daelin NOT be a reasonable man? The plot shows us that the Horde brings only destruction, when they’re left to their own devices and are not controlled by someone reasonable like Thrall.

Basically, “Without its warchiefs control the Horde will become an even greater threat. There must always be a Thrall.”

And as I said: I absolutely despise this just as much as everyone else. You could have gone a completely different path with the orcs and the Horde, instead Blizzard made sure that characters like Daelin, Rogers and Greymane are constantly proven right.

11 Likes
42

All Daelin had to do was waiting couple of years basically so horde would show its true intentions. Very soon horde started attacking Ashenvale. If Daelin waited untill then combined forces of his ships and night elves would have made short work of Orgrimmar.

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43

Thank you.

44

Daelin always had a point. BfA only reinforced that, it didn’t prove that. It is true that the orcs committed heinous atrocities in Stormwind and Lordaeron, and it is true that Thrall attempted to cast aside his guilt by pretending that the orcs had changed (which they didn’t —> See: Garrosh Hellscream). It is true that he understood more than Jaina realized, since Daelin was a grizzled war veteran of the Second War while Jaina was a naive summer child, and it is true that Jaina would learn in time (See: Garrosh nuking Theramore out of existence). It is true that the Horde couldn’t be trusted (See: Garrosh, for the third time in this post, and Sylvanas Windrunner).

Need I go on?

Daelin declared war on the lone leader willing to give humans the peace they wanted.

Yeah, No. He didn’t declare war on anyone. Thrall declared war on the Alliance of Lordaeron by breaking the Alliance internment act and annihilating an Alliance garrison.

2 Likes
45

Id say that it’s a broad brush to try and mix “legit” and “honest” acts of aggression during war times, with punctual acts of evil and villainy (which I’m not denying).

Not every act of war constitutes a crime that deserves prosecution and extermination.

Not every act of aggression translates into genocidal tendencies.

What was the Horde supposed or expected to do during war times? Sit back and take the hit if only to avoid been tagged as monstrous?.

Let alone the fact that dubbing Daelin as “reasonable” in his claim, discards everything positive the Horde has brought.

It’s very onsided to try and pin the blame of those wars entirely at the Hordes feet.
There’s a reason why this is called a cycle of hatred.
There are plenty of instances that have proven right the other side of the coin.

Even Sylvanas (of all people) can sound reasonable if we are to have just half the picture.

Saying that Daelin was “reasonable” for wanting to wage genocide on the whole faction, still is, from my point of view, a stretch.

Again, it’s like validating Grommash for wanting to exterminate the Draenei.

2 Likes
46

I want an undead faction, and I do not want to seek validation from the opposite faction, I play both sides , but the main reason why I hate Saurfang’s Horde is because they are acting as if they should take the Alliance’s permission before taking a breath lol.

I wish Sylvanas did not burn Teldrasil, but ive been killing Night Elves since the first time I pvpd.

Anwyays I cannot wait to see where the story is headed

3 Likes
47

There is a tendency to homogenise the racial values. Probably because the current writers tend to draw increasingly obvious parallels with the current RL mindset regarding war.

WoW has become less of an ingame universe that has values that resonate only with fantasy themes, and more of a lecturing platform that mixes fictional and RL values.

Some time ago, we could contemplate savage cultures and consider them as they were and where they operated. They had less qualms about having races go against our RL values because it seems they knew we were talking about fiction. People will note it when they see the kind of quests Classic offers.

Now, the messaging seems to have a bigger influence. And we can’t have characters doing stuff we find disagreeable in RL.

(I disagree with said approach profoundly, just as I dislike the PC culture that seeps into the game with certain writers…).

3 Likes
48

No redemption needed. Rather Baine and the sad orc squad need to gtfo and join the Alliance.

3 Likes
49

I want an elven faction

As for Horde redemption?
No, not really
Maybe after this generation of horde/Alliance leaders/war criminals died and their descendants want to make things right
At his point, waiting that moment behind Suramar’s impenetrable shiled is the best one could do
If you are an Elf

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50

It isn’t. If they go full-on comedy mode and start parodizing themselves, every stupid decision they did can be redeemed!

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51

It’s not. Just retcon BfA into being a nightmare we had after coming into contact with Sargeras’ energy.

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52

An Elven faction? No thank you.

I can see the conflict of the players now “(Insert player’s favourite elf race here) are the best in this faction” and that’s all it will be.

2 Likes
53

Careful now, after the awakening no more Kul Tirans…
Not much of a loss
But still

54

Well let’s be honest here, the only reason KT and Zandalari are here was because of their navy’s, both of which are heavily damaged.

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I’ll take it. People have been roleplaying as Kul Tiran characters long before BfA anyway. The only real loss would be Kul Tiras itself which is easily the most beautiful zone they’ve ever made.

56

The worst questing zones to have ever been implemented. Period.

Beautiful, yes. Experience, horrible.

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57

Hey now, what’s wrong with Drustvar and Stormsong?

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58

Let’s not even go there, on Stormsong…the only good parts of this zone are the Lord Stormsong, Old God, Queen Azshara portions.

And Drustvar…it’s plain boring from start to finish. The only redeeming quality it has got is I don’t think Christie Golden had anything to do with the zone, because it was seemingly a dedication to beautiful girl (Lucille) vs ugly, feminist witches.

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59

I actually enjoyed Drustvar immensely, the music is great, the story-line engaging, there are Witcher vibes, which is awesome.

My favorite zone, probably.

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60

I can’t bring myself to do any of the KT zones.

I only have 3 Alliance 120’s, because I literally only level my Alliance characters through Islands and Timewalking. I honestly can’t face Kul’Tiras as a questing hub.