Itemization in WoW Classic


(Timoris) #43

Lazy.

in 10 chars


#44

Those people are not helped at all with progressive itemization. The items at earlier stages all got changed because there either under or over performing, or had stats which made no sense For instance shadowcraft boots having 21 intelligence.

If your a new player, or a retail person that has never played classic, if those boots were to drop for a rogue, you might not pick up the boots with 21 int 9 stam, while the 1.12 version 21 agi 9 stamina would be clearly beneficial. Only the elite Less then 1% players would know which items to keep to save for a later patch, and since the items would change every different patch they would be able to select pick the broken items for that patch (eg green welp armor which used to be even able to work on raid mobs.)

A second aspect is that the items in previous versions are ment to coincide with the talents that were present then. Mixing those items with 1.12 talents might have other unforseen effects.

Third, there are some hidden stats on items that we cannot clearly see. Eg, bonereaver edge, besides its proc, also had its procrate changed over it’s itemization. Since blizzard only has a verifiable 1.12 client, older versions of weapons might not be able to properly be tested.

Last, your making it sound as private servers are better. If they were why does everyone, and ESPECIALLY the private server community begged for years for blizzard to bring back vanilla servers? If they are so good and “perfect” clearly that shouldn’t happen?


#45

If you reread the blue post that is exactly what there doing. If a item got implemented in patch 1.3 or 1.4 there added in phase 2, if it was added in 1.11 or 1.12 its added in phase 6 etch.


#46

Not true, you can always scramble bosses timers a bit, there is absolutely no need for Ragnaros to stay exactly 3 minutes up and submerge the 90 seconds, like he did in vanilla retail. Hell, you can even implement some randomness to it.

My point is, you can very easily play with bosses timers in order to induce an element of surprise.


(Trajan) #47

Credit when credit is due and criticism when criticisms is due.

This post is extremely disappointing. It completely ignores the power differences between those versions of items. Also the rationalization for going with 1.12 stats is nothing but a list of whataboutisms. What bugs there were to bosses has absolutely nothing to do with whether progressive itemization makes sense or not. This reads like a political speech.


#48

Thank you for the update, fully understand the thought process and the project lead has made the correct choice.

Keep them coming.


(Timoris) #49

It totally is.

At the very minimum they should change stats on pvp rewards.


#50

I am very happy to hear this. :slight_smile: Of course we don’t need melee classes raiding with spirit because better itemization is not possible. Good itemization is important. I was very angry when strength cloth gear was popping up while questing - for example as I remember a rescue quest in Hillsbrad Foothills gave such an awful reward - Grunt Vest. Don’t remember actual stats but it had strength and spirit. And it was an ugly Vest, although that’s a different matter.

On the other hand - retuning the content should be on the cards, as no content was relevant(challenging enough) at 1.12 after the talent and spell changes.

Yes, Moonkin Form was unavailable in Molten Core and it would be “unvanilla” to have it. But it’s really a nice spell that complements the whole tree. So it’s the content that should be retuned and changed to accommodate for 1.12 changes rather than vice versa.


(Timoris) #51

No one is asking for the old broken talents or mechanics. We understand that.

Stats on items are an easy thing to do, in fact even private servers do it.

Having progressive itemization would help creating a more authentic experience.

There is nothing to say or debate here, this is a bad decision stemming out of sheer laziness towards the project.

This will seriously alter the gameplay experience and the first phase of the game won’t offer any even remotely challenging content and even bwl will be totally face roll

It pains me to say it but it’s clear that the current wow design philosophy is contaminating the project. “Hard to keep track of item stats”. Give me a break.


#52

Thank you Blizzard. Very cool.


(Arleinaa) #53

But that wouldn’t be what the community asked for would it? and it wouldn’t be Classic either.

I have no axe to grind either way on this - never played Vanilla, and have only played it on Nost.

Reading some of the comments about how right Private servers are in the way they have (re) made the game , making as Bliz like as possible I’m going to leave this little gem here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYepdsfid4w


(Meibhín) #54

I’d say it’s fairly insulting to assume these ‘people’ are low IQ enough to be happy with wearing items in phase 1 they likely won’t need to change until phase 5. That’s not good game design. That’s not good for character progression.

This isn’t and “and/or” situation there’s a middle ground to be found here but instead of addressing that you’re jumping to broad, sweeping, conclusions. Did you bother to read the entirety of my post?

First of all the assumption that only 1% of players would know what is good or not is based on what exactly? Even casuals today have access to a wealth of information to know what they should go for or not. We’ve always had BIS lists the problem is that you’re offering them items (some of which drop in BRD) that won’t be replaced until they hit Naxxramas. That’s not good. Your entire argument is based around the idea that Blizzard seemingly can’t find an alternative to this when we know they can tweak items. Many items were changed over the patches. Rather than allowing OP stats from the get go they could do something about that, but they aren’t. That’s the point.

See above. Did you read my original post?

This shouldn’t be a problem for Blizzard.

Now that’s entirely relevant but as far as we’re aware they haven’t stated any specifics. For some reason I have 1.8 or 1.10 in my mind but I’m not sure which of those they mentioned.

Whether you like it or not, the audience Blizzard are trying to appeal to are going to have a free option on servers that run smoothly. We can sit here and argue but that won’t change the fact that they are butter smooth and have leapfrogged in the quality of the experience they offer. The overarcing point is they will (like Project 1999) be able to offer a free experience that Blizzard can not. There seems to be a mental block on this forum where people are of the belief that these servers development stopped with Nost, or haven’t dramatically improved over the years. Once Blizzard releases their client they will have the ability to mine this data and adjust their own values. If there’s one other thing they can do that Blizzard seemingly can’t it’s offer a stable experience with no sharding. The point is even Blizzard were taken aback. I could go on but it’s worth listening to some time if you’re bored because after you’ve found out the details its an eye opener.

Firstly, private servers initially came about as projects, in much the same way the modding community creates not for any real incentive but because it gives them joy. It was only really after WOTLK onwards that servers started popping up to offer people an experience that Blizzard refused to offer, they were pretty bad, I remember Emerald Dream on Feenix. The difference between these servers and Nost in quality is honestly monumental. The same can be sad about Elysium, then Light’s Hope that proceeded it. The best way I can describe the way in which the scale of these projects have evolved over the years is like that of an arms race between two major powers. This is something Blizzard acknowledged themselves at the Nost meeting. They booted up the Nost client on their servers to try it and were impressed. Nano their lead Q&A speaks about this in his interviews. Apparently Kalgan tamed a pet forgetting it wouldn’t auto-level and wiped the group in Strathholme, or Scholomance. I forget which of the two. This is often why I jump in to sharding threads or link video’s because people don’t seem to realize how far they’ve come. They’re not the buggy, broken, experience people make them out to be.

There are obviously a large number of people wanting official servers, with official support but the point over all here is that they’re repeating the same mistakes the Everquest Classic team did. That’s what I’m trying to get at.


#55

It’s sad to see that so many players doesn’t understand the impact that this is going to have in the grand scheme of things. Hopefully I can convince the lot of you why this matters. Veteran players already know this - but we’re up against so many people who doesn’t know any better. And I don’t blame you. Because how could you?

This is possibly one of the most important things to be vocal about and demand a change of heart on.

Items with their 1.12 stats were changed to be much stronger over the course of vanilla because there wasn’t that many “catch-up” mechanics available like there is in todays World of Warcraft. By having these items in from the start means that the content will be even easier than it already is - and it will cause people to lose interest far sooner than what the ideal goal is.

I don’t think people understand how much these items affects peoples interest.

Part of playing WoW is seeing your character progress through items. Becoming stronger and stronger every week by getting new upgrades here and there. The thrill of the hunt, so to speak.

If these changes go through, a lot of peoples BLUE gear is going to be best in slot until Ahn’Qiraj - and to some even until Naxxramas. This is not good. You don’t want to be as powerful as you can possibly be after 2 weeks of being level 60 for 3 raids. Then there’s no incentive to run Molten Core or Blackwing Lair more than a few times unless you’re speedrunning.

You had one job, Blizzard. Why can´t you do it? Why is it so hard to do it proper? Classic has the opportunity to be something great, but not with your lazy Activision approach.
Why can´t you, at least once in your damn lives, care about your fans and your product? This is pure evil. You can´t for one second stop thinking about money and cuts and simply deliver Classic as it should be.
Classic is the last chance many people are giving you and you are about to squander it with half-assed bastardized version of it.
You lost your souls to shareholders.


#56

They mentioned they retrieved “SOME” data from patch 1.8, but not all. I rather have a verified working product, then an educated guess to what it was. With guesses you get the exact same thing as we’ve seen in the demo “warlock demon didn’t unsummon at the start of the summoning but at the end” Any “error” therefor can not be tested if it is is or isn’t an error. The end result would be that more people were to experience “inaccuracies”

Your tantum trandrum of “i want it this way” is losing all sight of why its from a developer standpoint unfeasable to do that.


#57

So you want to run BRD where bosses drop green gear with spirit rather than superb blue that’s nice for your class?

Or you want shadowcraft boots to have 21 intellect instead of 21 agility because it would make MC more difficult for a rogue?

The itemization was changed for a reason. So you don’t waste your time doing a 5 hour dungeon for +10 spirit +10 intellect boots. Just compare that to Maraudon loot, or even lower dungeons. They give better loot for level than BRD.

Instead, we need to retune the content accordingly. Blizzard did not bother retuning during vanilla, because older dungeons and raids were getting obsolete and nobody cared about them. People were preparing for AQ40 and Naxx and so what if MC was easier than Deadmines? Actually it’s true. If you have 40 not-stupid people, MC will be easier than doing deadmines with a similar skilled 5 men group.

MC is already obsolete, because 1.12 spells and talents are too powerful for that raid. Forcing rogues to raid with 21 intellect boots is not a fix.


(Bigkeg) #58

You are overreacting. Blue Bloodvine set coms with ZG and replaces some T1/T2. Some super good blue items like the spell hit offhand from Strat won’t come until late phase (needs T0.5 summon). Many cool blue gear from scholo/strat/ubrs/lbrs will also not be available early on as they were added later. What people will be able to do early on is to get like Cadaverous set and alike for cloth, mail and plate - that will be blue instead of green and with better, but not super BiS stats. Also things like Devilsaur crafted set are pre-raid BiS and available anyway. Not to mention not everyone will raid, some ma be only interested in 20-mans here and there and open world activities, or just go fishing, while hardcore players will min/max anyway and farm raids anyway. First phase is items up to 1.3 - that’s actually very little, even if they are updated.

Install Linux, then install Docker, then run few Docker containers with Mangos core, alter some files to your liking - poof - perfect Vanilla for you.


#59

all I can say is this is worrying and irritatingly stubborn from blizzard. The DRASTIC difference in power, from what people call the ‘‘naxx blues’’ where dungeon items got buffed to an except able level for naxxramas point of vanilla, at this point if your not even gonna get rid of catch up mechanics that were made for content you are time gating in phases then why even time gate them at all! After all pvp weapons for melee we’ll be able to get in BWL will be on par with AQ with no progressive itemisation and dungeon loot will be better on the most part than the dire maul loot that they specifically pulled back in the time line due to feed back but they contradict that here! very very disappointing is all I can say :frowning:
and like others have said in here, the more bad decisions you make like this, the more appealing private servers look, I haven’t been playing on them because I am waiting for classic…


#60

Problem with item progression is what happens if someone can’t join till later on than release - RL gets in the way for an extra year after release - so when they join they already have the progression and all the arguments for it are moot anyway because they will just be getting the updated items anyway.

The team should retune the content instead, leave the items as they are in 1.12 like the talents are 1.12. Make the encounters harder to deal with instead, add a few extra mobs to trash packs, an extra add spawns, a little more health/damage on bosses, another mechanic that wasn’t there before. Knowledge of the encounters will make them far easier than stats will - though I do see how these will all stack to make things much easier.

Who are blizzard supposed to please? How much work do people want them to put into the game? And finally there seem to be so many people around that are stating how things should be done, but I don’t see them making their own mmo, its only my opinion but some people seem to look at some of these implementations as simple and easy 5 min tasks with little to no ramifications


#61

re tuning is no longer classic, it is a change which is even worse, blizz forgets that CLASSIC isn’t only 1.12.1, A LOT of the fondest memories when it comes to vanilla actually are from the earliest days and noob stories ofc

1.12.1 AV is the worst version
1.12.1 has the most OP loot from easier content
1.12.1 has the most conveniences and funny bugs removed
and even fun things that were in 1.12.1 are gone probably like wall jumping because of the modern client

oh and 1.12.1 has the most nerfed content

almost like everything blizzard do, they make their games in the stalest, boring version possible


#62

Ok guys. Go spend hours to kill Golem Lord Angelmach for green boots with no stats and just 14 spell damage.

You can buy better green boots from AH for 1 gold or less.