Yup, I was doing dailies in Korthia today and I said in general “3+ weeks and still no sight of Kyrian transmog” and many people replied “Yup, this game is trash but we just keep coping.”
But a grind is not the same as a timegate. Also do you honestly believe that SL’s 9.0 content is comparable to previous expansion launch patches ?
A grind without a timegate is actually terrible for casual players, because droprates have to be obnoxious to make sure the average players are occupied for more than 2 months. And no, I definitely don’t think Korthia is as good as Argus and Nazjatar/Mechagon
But what’s fundamentally wrong about it ?
Isn’t the main argument in favour of tier sets that they slightly change your spec from one tier to another ? If that isn’t a massive support for having borrowed power systems then i don’t know what is.
Imo there’s an argument to be made in favor of borrowed power. It doesn’t have to be grindy nor follow the current templates but it’s not necessarily a bad design. As others before me said, it’s a lesser evil.
Yet one of the biggest criticism of BFA was that its systems were generic and boring, unlike the spec specific ones of Legion. That’s another point in favor of class-based borrowed power in my books.
Once again I don’t see the fundamental issue with progression your character beyond leveling & gearing. Borrowed power was not imho the reason why players were frustrated. The issue was how that borrowed power was implemented, from the systems themselves to their acquisition and flaws.
7.3.5 is remembered very fondly. Yet we had what, 5 borrowed powers systems stacked on top of each other ? The reason is very simple : Stuff was basically handled for free or very little effort. And the BFA feedback proved how much players prefered these systems compared to the generic essences or most of the azerite traits, tier sets in particular.
And I agree with you here, it’s because of badly designed and frustrating systems. Not the fundamental concept, and we already have examples of successful designs such as tier sets.
Then random question about pruned classes : What do paladins actually need ? (Or replace paladins with whatever class/spec you play that feel like they were pruned)
I don’t really remember what was removed & added over the course of the past 3 or 4 expansions but let’s assume it left holes in the overall class design. What do paladins need that they currently lack ?
How so ? I mean if its for power gains I can see the usual #casual™ going “OmG blizzard, I can only play for like 15 mins a week because i have 5 jobs 6 wifes and 178 kids…”. But if its something like a mount, what is stopping you from tackling said grind in your own time and speed ?
Why does it have to keep them occupied for 2+ months, both in SL and BfA (I dont remember what drop off and when did it occur the other expansions had) we saw that even with timegating, people would quit regardless if casual™ or hardcore, because the game is not fun.
Low bar, huh ?
Sure, that’s ok.
2 months is just an arbitrary number I pulled out of my backside, but obviously they want us subbed as much as possible.
Yeah, and that’s not really a bad thing but the phrase “You catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar” comes to mind, make the content fun and engaging (and when it comes to SL make more of it), make more stuff worth replaying, just imagine what else we could have gotten in SL if they listened to feed back and didn’t waste so much time trying to figure out covenant balancing and power progressions and instead focused all those system designers on something else.
These systems also slow down development. Why? Every expansion they need to reinvent the game.
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Because its cheaper to produce less and yet demand the same amount of money.
2 out 3 expansions following this framework are bad, so that leaves this framework with a 66% failure rate, which means it in fact failed.
The ones in Legion and above are so bad that they should be gone, once and for all.
Pouring ressources into things being thrown away once we no longer need them is point stupid, because that could be easily defined by a single word : waste. Those systems are a waste of time, RH and in the end…fun for players.
It’s like they have a vision, but a really wrong one, which is simply trying to recreate the game every 2 years or so. They just can’t go on this way for years.
WOW’s success came from its simplicity, not from the fact that I have to run simulations like in my data science courses so that I can see if a given piece of gear is an upgrade or not.
It’s time for Blizzard to follow back this paradigm.
That’s a sweet dream. I just wish they didn’t try to revive spells from vanilla to wrath era, aka useless spells and outdated mecanics.
What I meant is that max level systems should at least not be tied to character powers, that is true.
So we should be expecting a complete class overhaul, right ?
Those people are irrelevant since they actually don’t play the game and would rather play classic. Imho, retail should be made for retail players, not for classic players.
The game needs those optionnal things and that’d be more satisfying.
Professions need some love, for sure.
It worked like that for litteral years and the game was better.
It’s up to them to find a solution, not to players. Holinka did say that “We don’t like that” is enough of a feedback.
Sadly, for some forum users, it’s up on players NOT TO follow the path dictated by Blizzard designers, which sounds really stupid.
WOOP WOOP, that da sound of the fun police !
If Blizzard designer want us to follow a path, ie a way of playing the game, then it’s defo not players inflicting them that to themselves.
Screw MAU. Now, how can they convince shareholders that players are actually staying, because metrics are actually pushing players away…How ironic.
I have a better path : none of that useless BS !
somehow, I do think WoD is more enjoyable than Legion…Yeah, I dare to say that out loud.
The solution is as simple as getting rid of those. Times changes and the mantra “MMORPG = farm” has to die, because that’s not how modern gaming works.
It should be aboot quality rather than quantity. They should make less mounts, but with more unique skins and really long quests like legion’s lucid nightmare or BFA’s bee.
We’re paying for an open beta, yeah…
And yes, that’s also true, MAU would improve if we were allowed to play alts. Once my raid progression ends, I don’t even know if I would want to keep playing while waiting for 9.2.
Not going to quote your entire reply, as I agree with most of your points. So my argument is that if they can’t make borrowed powers right then they should not or at least spend time on reworking that framework, because we can’t keep going on this way for another expansion.
It’s like taking away a child’s toy when he’s enjoying playing with it. As a result, he ends up crying…
Because we should not in the first place.
Hi vinzora, aren’t you leaving keys yet ?
That’s vinzora, don’t waste time 
We have the same rotation, but the artifact weapon kinda solved some of our core issues, like being able to hit from 20 when casting DS, we had a free CC break. Now, well, we don’t have a meaningful spell…
Ret’s conduits or legendaries are not fixing some of the issues, unlike other specs.
And they should not have scrapped those. That was a mistake.
I just can’t imagine the flood of actual meaningful content !
And welcome to artzoka !
Then they should cut “fun taxes” on those players…Like allow us to play alts, remove those boring systems !
Specs could work without tier sets. That’s less true with Legion and BFA since corruptions and essences were band aid to broken specs.
Then it’s up to them to make those right…Which I don’t trust they can.
An actual raid wide CD as a class wide spell rather than being holy only and relevant buffs. Because let’s be honest, warrior and DK are better plate support than paladin is.
Not much, just some kind of relevant buff, a raid wide CD and an AOE builder not on a 45s CD.
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Tbf they are not trying to recreate the, they are only trying to recreate more or less the same system over and over again without realizing that they already made somewhat working formats of said system in every x.3 patch.
Ehm not quite agree as some classes do work fine atm, some are halfway there and some are straight up garbage (gameplay speaking not numbers wise). Like I agree with you an extend but “all classes” and “complete overhaul” is to broad of a stroke for me.
I cannot say that anyone is irrelevant, sure some people might have piss poor takes and could be dead wrong on certain topics but the game is big enough for everyone. Also I would like to have a purpose for class trainers again.
And those same players complain about more or less the same stuff we do, “borrowed power grinds are not mandatory… its a player inflicted problem”=" WQ don’t give me enough ilvl so i can pewpew Ardenweald slugs faster, Blizzard fix".
Yeah…and that has to stop.
Well, they have to do something to that regards.
How ironic, isn’t it ?
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Not due to ‘the framework’, but actually HOW those systems worked. They just weren’t fun. They turned everything in a job for some players and into stuff they didn’t care about for other players.
The fault wasn’t the framework. It was the details of their new systems build ON that framework.
Agree to disagree.
The framework is the issue because if I were to be honest, for 3 expansions in a row, systems were broken upon release and eventually fixed in the .3 patch. So yes, I do think the framework is the root of wow’s issues because the initial framework has been built with the idea of gating progression behind timegated unfun grinds and chores.
So that’s why I’m advocating to remove or rework that because it just does not work.
Well I disagree with that. Legion was perfect in 7.0. For me anyway. No complaints. None.
Look, at the end of the day I’m not opposed to changes. I just want WoW to be fun again like it was in Legion.
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Yeah because you don’t care about power progression outside of ilvl and you do not multispec.
It can work, it just need proper execution. Legion AP was fine, fixed amount of power + plus infinite progression at the end. It’s was a fine system, but they messed up in the number of ap you can earn in a given time and even more when they made it spec specific instead of class based.
Not true on that first part. I do care. But not to obsessive levels.
As for the multispec; true, I don’t.
But why do you feel the need to add this? I already stated ‘Legion was perfect in 7.0. For me anyway’. By saying it that way I already implied that it probably wasn’t perfect for everyone.
Look at how MOP did it. You leveled in the zones. Then you did rep grinds with the various factions (of course this had its issues but they could be fixed). You did professions, you did cooking and fishing. You did your farm in Halfhill.
Then we got a content patch that adds more story to Krassarang Wilds with more dailies with some story build in. You finish off the other rep and professions and kill world bosses.
By the time you’ve done that we get Isle of Thunder with more dailes and a bit more story and some rares and achievements. This keeps us going for a few months. Now we’ve done most of the end game stuff. time to level some alts.
Timeless Isle hits, yay, lots to do there. Timeless gear is great for alts too, just in time.
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This is what i miss the most. Open world, exploring. Legion and on are limited, claustrofobic
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