I do think that a poll would be interesting!
Like, Legion vs TBC/WotLK, just to see how many enjoy what more.
But yeah, vastly different games at that point, so I definitely don’t think anyone is insane for enjoying Legion more than the “Classic games”.
Mama likes what mama likes.
And I’ve also been telling my opinion during that time.
Tweeking a frustrating mechanic won’t make said mechanic more enjoyable. This kind of stuff makes sense in a game like diablo, but It does not belong in wow.
You can’t break a culture. This has been going on for many years, like people denying raid spots for those playing with wrong templates or playing meme spec.
I see no reason whatsoever to play with people that can’t play at my level. That is fine, really, so is gatekeeping.
Because prior to legion we only had gear and 1 legendary to get. Now, the process is far more tedious, long and boring, because there are 3 systems at least to farm on every single char. Gear as a tax was way sufficient. If anything, they achieved to force people playing 1 char and leave once they are done instead of feeling good aboot playing alts, because it really feels bad to play alts since legion.
It’s not the gearing process. So yes, Blizzard should flat out remove max level progression, since those are not fun to go through.
And if playing off spec is a luxury, then how are we going to fix tanks drought?
That very much depends on the mechanic and on the tweek.
It very well CAN work.
It should be broken.
And no, imo it’s not fine.
I agree on some aspects, but I don’t think flat out removing it will work.
Because that will, like in the old days, put way too much power towards raiding. I never want this game to become raid-or-die again.
By making tanking (more) rewarding and/or fun?
I don’t know nor care. I’ve never encountered this ‘drought’.
I don’t see how we can tweek layers of RNG upon layers of RNG. Something does not add up.
Nope, because those that don’t run M+ should not feel entitled to get KSM rewards.
That made the game good. Welfare gear killed the game.
Well, it’s not aboot tanking being unfun, it’s aboot the fact that I can’t effectively play tank, so I don’t wanna play tank. Many players are feeling this way so we’re stuck with a tank drought.
There’s nothing wrong with RNG as far as I am concerned.
The 2 things that should have been tweaked, were:
With those 2 tweaks the system would have been better for everyone. Sure, not to everyone’s liking, but not something that certain types of players would deem ‘mandatory’. It would be what it was always meant to be: A bonus. A little extra.
And those that don’t do raids, shouldn’t get raid rewards.
And those that don’t do world content, shouldn’t get world content rewards.
And those that don’t do PvP, shouldn’t get PvP rewards.
As I’ve been saying for years now. We need to seperate these 4 activities’ progression tracks.
Fundamentally disagree. It did not.
It made the game good for elitists. And that’s never a good thing.
Even calling it that (welfare) is insulting and demeaning.
For me it is. I don’t like tanking. I don’t like the responsibility that comes along with it.
So that is a ‘you’ thing.
If you believe that ‘anything but the very best is not good enough for me’ then your mindset is just bad and toxic.
Don’t speak for others.
Shi is kinda right tho.
Atm the systems upon systems of SL makes tending off-specs a horrendously convoluted affair, you need to have been on it from day one. You can’t just decide now, today, as a fury warrior “imma go Prot to help my guild” because:
So many people who could tank probably won’t because they’re “playing pretend” at being a tank and the game keeps them at arm’s length from jumping in properly because of the systems and the time delays on them. That’s odd. If should allow you to immerse and invest with effort alone, not pointless waiting!
The only reason I can tank somewhat atm is because i consciously spent my second lot of ash on a tanking leggo and i’ve chosen a covenant that is kinda gimpy/niche for my main spec because it’s really good for my tanking and dps specs, because the covenant that is bis for my main spec is garbage for my offspecs.
But the differences are huge. This isn’t just about “squeezing some numbers huhuhuhu” and min max wet dreams.
The difference in performance between a Sinister Teachings Venthyr Mistweaver and a Night Fae Mistweaver (of any leggo) in terms of consistent group HPS is significant and additionally much much much easier to administer.
Min maxers are fussing over that top line of 4% or so, not the stuff that literally causes your HPS or DPS to double in certain situations or completely changes the way you play - and offspecs can be limited in accessing these due to the systems.
Nothing is lsot by allowing people this flex. You simply give them the flex. The people who don’t want to multispec and don’t want to swap it up don’t have to, so it doesn’t affect them. And honestly if the reason they don’t like is because “this shouldn’t change, this thing I don’t even utilise because i think personally it’s wrong” that’s a really really sucky reason to try and deny other people something that would actually improve their play.
It’s akin to the arguments of people trying to get LFR removed when it doesn’t affect them at all. It’s just swimming in misery and trying to splash it about. People enjoying a part of the game in a way that is different to oneself, does not take away anything from oneself, so trying to deny others the right to do that “because I don’t like” is just selfish in my opinion!
Thank goodness blizzard have woken up and will be letting us swap around freely soon, look at the forums blizzard and clock it- make systems this free from the word go please.
Another proof of how your posts are a total nonsense, and you post just to fill your day.
It does not matter if you make tanking “rewarding and fun”, people will still not go en mass into tanking because at the end of the day, tank raid spot are still 2, tanks in pvp do not really work except niche scenarios and the amount of m+ only player is tiny.
This is so true.
MOP (one of the best expansions for both open world play and for raiding) had Timeless gear which was great for alts. Was fun too, go run around Timeless isle open some chest and kill some rares. Sounds like Korthia but for some reason Timeless Isle was fun but Korthia isn’t…
Timeless gear did not break the game.
Only from one specific perspective. And I take issue with that perspective.
To me that’s a very distorted way of looking at it.
The game is giving you enough tools to play your offspecs or alts. Just not to the degree where they instantly are ‘BiS’ when geared. And imo that’s completely okay. Alts don’t have to, and I’d even argue; SHOULDN’T, be BiS geared. I think that should be a ‘boon’ for mains. Why would someone focus on a single main character if getting an alt is super easy and fast and can be geared up to the same level without any real effort?
I don’t think the differences are ‘huge’ (maybe just the legendary).
And getting ash and stuff will be a lot faster in 9.1.5. It is a gear slot, a specific one, so just view it as part of gearing. It’s not something ON TOP of your gear, no; it’s literally gear itself.
Yeah that’s not the reason.
The reason is that alts and multispec ARE already versatilty and ‘an edge’ in and of themselves. I don’t think that that should be made ‘effortless’ just because you already have a main. I just have a different way of looking at this than you do.
I think alts and multispec are luxury. Extra possibilities and versatilty for you as a player. And I really don’t think it should be the go-to way to play.
An option: Of course. Not as painful as it is now: Yes.
But definitely not as effortless and fast and easy as some people on these forums are preaching for.
Looting an item carries enough RNG on its own. Adding an extra layer of RNG sucks, because if I don’t have a +20 ilvl on the item, I’d be upset aboot looting said item without that extra ilvl proc.
Would be too much. And even capped at 10, it would still suck if there was no way of upgrading, which the system does not allow.
Yes.
A little extra would be : I get a +20 ilvl item BUT if I get enough valor point, I can still get to +20. That would be an extra. If there is no way of upgrading, then it’s not a bonus.
I don’t trust blizzard to segregate content, since they’re into that “players should participate in every single piece of content” BS.
I don’t see why I should not be allowed to pick the players I wanna play with ? I actually liked the “bring the player not the class” mantra brought by ghostcrawler. So that applies in other aspects of the game too. I should not have to carry ungrateful noobs for free.
Because that’s what it was : gear without effort, so that’s welfare.
For ya…But the subject was not aboot ya.
By browsing forums, reddit and twitter, I can say it’s not a ““me”” thing only.
I don’t see why it’s wrong to make the perfect build for a given situation. RPGs are all aboot properly building characters. Sadly those systems are kinda against the idea of making the game more accesible.
And no, it’s not aboot a 1% extra dmg output, it’s aboot making the spec reliable because most of specs are created with the idea of being completed with temporary systems, so I need that off spec legendary, because I invested all of my ressources into purely offensive legendaries, which are either of no use for tanking or making tanking worse.
The complaints are not talking for me.
This is not because you’re not being affected, in your subjective opinion, that it does not affect other players.
But those systems are intended for not being available from day 1.
Which has always been a sufficient tax for playing alts and offspecs.
They saddly do and that conduit energy thing makes that process more tedious.
By buffing some legos, blizzard made some specs viable…Leggos are true mvp.
It’s time for Blizzard to stop creating useless systems that nobody asked for in the first place.
Actually, there would be more tanks in M+. Really…It’s as simple as allowing melee mains to easily swap in their tanks specs. That’s damn easy. Even a dumb player like could figure that out.
That is so wrong. Otherwise, I would not be the only player to complain aboot.
They actually are. More so than they should.
Which should have been the case from the launch.
It’s not gearing, it’s a litteral system. Getting the recipes, the powers, the armor to host said power and missives for stats. Then we need to grind thorgasht to get the right of upgrading by purchasing more of the afordmentioned elements. Compared to gear which is just…gear, without those layers of things.
Mutlispecs should not be a luxury, because that kinda shows someone willing to invest on every single aspect of its char. If anything it should be rewarded. As for regarding alts, I’ve lowered the amount of chars I was playing during the span of an expansion to 2 during legion and I cba playing a second char since 8.2.
Pretty much agree with the OP.
Borrowed power systems not only feel grindy and unrewarding as their actually discontinuation feel terrible at the end of the expansion.
There is no need for this. Players do have a choice. Another game or stop playing. Don’t assume we are forced to put up with this. I think you already understood that.
Just do new abilities each xpac. Prune some, replace others with upgraded versions with new animations like FF does it.
I would be in favor of removing borrowed power for an actual power progression system.
Lots of games do it, but only in wow do i see this mentality of: Oh we can’t do that because ability bloat, like please just shut up already.
There are a lot of ways of adding stuff without overcluttering the specs.
Exactly, but that has nothing to do with being rewarding or fun. It’s just a matter of cutting out the issues, like the need for more very expensive not farmable leggos, or double set of weapons again, not farmable and with limited drops.
And that’s exactly why it’s a ‘you’ problem.
You’re not satisfied unless you get the very best.
I didn’t get upset if something didn’t TF. No, then I got the NORMAL reward.
If I DID get a TF then that was a cool bonus, but not what I set out to get in the first place.
Mindset is everything.
Why is it too much?
Of course it is! What kind of weird argumentation is that?!
If I get handed 50 euros right now, it’s a BONUS. Yeah, that amount COULD have 100, but so what?! The 50 is ALREADY a bonus.
I feel you really have issues with accepting ‘less than the best’.
Aye and I’m advocating that they should change that ‘BS’.
I… have no clue why you’re saying this… This has nothing to do with the game being ‘raid-or-die’ again. THAT was what made the game horrible for me (after I stopped raiding in TBC).
And that’s insulting as well.
There IS effort. You can’t play this game without effort.
LESS effort, sure. But ‘no’ effort is just pure nonsense.
Well you seem to think everyone thinks the same things you do. Which is not the case.
Me sharing MY reasons is just an example to show that.
Sure not ONLY. Just like MY reasons are very probably not exclusive either.
But you still can’t speak for others.
You represent nobody but yourself.
Exactly. They ruin the game for many more people.
So yeah; you can do it. But it should NEVER be catered to imo.
And that’s ‘just gearing’.
Yes it is. It’s just ‘more involved’ gearing.
I thought you liked ‘more effort’?
IT IS rewarded. By giving you more options on your character. More ways to play that character. THAT is the reward.
And? That’s fine.
You shouldn’t NEED to play alts.
Because they’re a luxury.
Nope, because looting an item is a sufficient RNG layer.
Why should I be satisfied by getting a downgrade ?
That’s a “you” problem.
Which sometimes is not an upgrade, so not getting that item would have been better. I’d rather not loot than getting a downgrade.
Nice for you but…
If they got rid of TF then designers understood that it created wrong mindset.
Because the ilvl gap between 2 raid difficulties is 13. Knowing 3 ilvl could be a downgrade, which means that a HC piece of gear could be better than a mythic piece of gear.
20 ilvl implies getting a piece of gear from harder content, even better. How is that a bonus ?
Nope, TF is like going to McDonals with my brother, we both take the exact same meal but he gets an extra burger, for free, despite both of us paying the exact same price.
I do. Really, I do. But only if it’s aboot different items, not the exact same item with dozen of variations.
I don’t see why.
It’s no effort to my mind.
And never have I pretended to talk in the name of every single player.
Still, many players are thinking the way I do.
How so?
And why ? Why would that affect you badly if I can get the perfect build for the appropriate situation ?
Azerite armors and artifact weapons were only “gearing” but were actually not.
Yeah, when it’s fun, which thorgasht ain’t.
It has been punished since legion.
Well, the way you were saying that implied it’s a wrong thing to be a multi specs player.
No, because I used to WANT to play them. Now, it’s rather because I feel like it’s super tedious that I DON’T WANT to. And that’s bad because I kinda liked changing playstyle, which is no longer the case. So now, I’m playing other games, because that’s what Blizzard want me to do.
You don’t need to be stronger in open world content.
Yes, mine, and I never said otherwise.
With TF, yes, looting a Mythic piece of gear which has less ilvl than a HC piece of gear that got a TF proc is a straight downgrade.
Yours is wrong because you assume that something ain’t a problem because you don’t think it’s a problem.
Then stop using this argument, because when you see something as a problem I don’t use such “argument”. That goes both ways. So should I be saying that WQ not being rewarding is a “you problem” ?
Looting a mythic piece of gear should be an upgrade compared to a HC piece of gear.
A complaint is a valid complaint, regardless of the topic.
If they gave in then they agreed. Like pulling the ripcord, they Blizzard eventually gave in.
There are millions of players not complaining aboot a system are the ones that would not cry either if it were removed.
Yet, if there was TF, then a HC piece of gear still has potential to turn a mythic piece of gear into a downgrade.
So are you.
A bonus is something nice that I can do without. I can’t do without a +20 ilvl proc. I’m sorry, we’re all not cleaning WQ all day long.
I’m paying for the exact same price. Why can’t I have the same things for the exact same price ?
Your mindset is kinda wrong too.
If you think there are efforts in killing boars, then good for ya.
Which does not affect LFR nor LFD, let alone world quests.
Because your way of viewing things is kinda in the minority.
Nope since they required AP to activate traits.
And I’d rather we didn’t have that extra cake to bake.
Why is that wrong ? You’re not even running M0 dungeons, so what the hell do ya know aboot ??
Technically no, but just stating something without adding something along the lines of ‘imo’ or ‘as I see it’ or ‘I think that’ etc basically IMPLIES a ‘broad statement’ and not just ‘your opinion’.
Sure, but that’s not what I said.
Oh not at all.
I simply think that you are creating MORE problems yourself by being this way.
And should other people suffer because of that? I don’t think they should.
You could. If you don’t think they’re problematic.
I do think that ‘my’ problem is shared by many more people and isn’t exclusively ‘my’ problem, but a problem for a rather large part of the playerbase.
Depends. Normally; sure.
But having exceptions to this is fine imo.
Maybe. BUT… If 15 really vocal complain about something, while 40 people remain silent because they were just enjoying the game… SHOULD those complainers be catered to AT THE COST of those 40? I don’t think they should.
You don’t know that. But the thing is…
The game has DEFINITELY become a whole lot less casual friendly in Shadowlands.
And that’s DEFINITELY costing them subs.
No. “A pleasant extra thing”.
That is the official definition. No other parameters. Nothing about ‘can do without’.
Yeah you can. Actually.
You don’t WANT to do without, but you CAN.
Because he got lucky and got a BONUS.
Why can’t you be happy for someone else?
It’s not about what I think. It’s a FACT that there is.
Do I need to provide you with the definition of ‘effort’ as well?
“physical or mental activity needed to achieve something”
So? I never claimed they did. But they still affect a LARGE part of the game overal in a negative and toxic way.
Because people will make it into a meta thing. REQUIRING people to do it.
That’s not okay.
I know a lot about a great many things.
I also know a lot about outer space. Never been there though.
I also know a lot about certain sports. Never played them myself though.
I also know a lot about war. Never been in one.
Etc.
You don’t have to DO something to KNOW things about it.
I won’t do that, since that’d be silly.
But that’s what you failed to recognize.
I don’t see why my pov and opinions aren’t valid. Let alone, I don’t see why I should change my mind aboot TF.
Then again, those who were in favor should have been way louder aboot, if you guys really wanted to keep such thing.
And I’m saying the same. Goes both ways.
TF and WF made that the norm rather than the exception.
Well, the 40 silent players can be vocal aboot telling their opinions. Still, like covenants lock, the ones that complained aboot won, because blizzard gave in to our demands. Those who were silent are likely the ones that didn’t care aboot covenant lock at all.
The game has been a casual hell since Legion.
No. The boring unfun grinds and associated systems are the problems.
TF and WF are not pleasant, not at all. Otherwise, Blizzard would have kept those in the game.
Sorry, you don’t have a damn clue aboot raiding. I don’t need +20 ilvl for killing boars. I do need it to survive some DPS checks.
Because I know my brother eats like a bird, therefore, that extra burger is of no use to him. Since McDonalds introduced some stupid rules forbiding people from the same group to trade extra items, then that’s a wasted proc, since he’s not going to eat and is being forbid to trade me that extra burger, which I would have ate.
On a more serious tone, no, that’s bad. I’m saying that doing X should reward Y, not doing X could reward Y, or Z or Y+Z.
I can also say as a matter of fact that killing a boar takes exactly 3 gcd to achieve. So I don’t see any kind of physical or mental activity at all.
Then you admit you haven’t experienced it by yourself.
You really don’t have a clue, eh. Most of CE guilds don’t enforce playing the meta spec. CE GUILDS. So it’s likely that HC or Normal guilds are not enforcing too. If they do, then they’re stupid, because there are fundamental issues which have no links whatsoever with the “meta”.
Sadly, your assumptions are all wrong.
You mean just like WotLK, which is a favourite expansion for many.
As for Legion, I enjoyed it a lot, one of my favourites. But the AP grind was a total nightmare.
Blizzard have been doing grinds since, which has made the game boring. People don’t want to log on and have to do all these chores just to progress. Constant long Torg grinds to upgrade legendaries and such. They went the right way decreasing the floors, but still, I hate it, so much.
Great thing about Legion was the Mage Tower, it was hard, you didn’t have to spend hours grinding, it was brilliant, which is why they’re bringing it back. I’d prefer challenging content instead of very long grinding content…
Conduits, renowns need to be scraped, keep it simple, stop implementing all these systems we have to spend hours to grind for, then the game would improve a lot.