That’s kinda the reason why many of us don’t want LC. In a DKP system, you know perfectly what matters and what doesn’t in regards to your ability to get items. For example, we reward DKP based on boss kills, being on time for the raid (benchers still get 100% of the DKP rewards as long as they’re around and ready to come if needed), and a small weekly bonus if ppl donate 25-30g worth of certain mats (you can only donate once per week so you can’t just P2W your way through the system). That’s it.
In a LC system, just about everything can make the difference, as you mentioned. Helping people level, farming stuff (with no real upper ceiling beyond the LC’s own discretion), doing PvP, using consumes and whatnot. It often creates an environment where people feel forced to try as hard as they can in every aspect of the game just to excel over others and have prio on items, and that rly burns ppl out in the long run due to all the drama (imagine for example a person who thinks they did all kinds of stuff that should improve their standings, but the LC ignores them - be it in good or bad faith).
Ultimately, a point-based system with simple and well thought-out rules is the best system for any but the most hardcore guilds. Sure, in the end everyone can use w/e they want, but LC is so dependant on guild culture and so prone to go wrong (even in ways you can’t exactly know right from the onset, like in the case of a bad DKP system), that me and many others just would rather not take the risk. The game just isn’t hard enough to justify it.
Good, a attitude like that have no place in a proper loot council, hope the guild disbanded and the leaders never got to make a guild again. Its things like that, which ruins the reputation of the functioning loot councils.
People are always suprised when others actually follows up on their threats, good that you didnt cave
No system can truly please everyone.
I’ve been in guild that ran EPGP and when the big Nefarian weapons started dropping, suddenly they got loot counciled to some special people.
I’ve also seen class leaders that are part of a council get geared absolutely last when they could have easily abused the system, but didn’t.
It’s all up to to people as many have pointed out, most aren’t loot goblins, but there are some that ruin it for everyone.
I mean, the problem with “functioning loot councils” is that it’s hard to prove they’re actually functioning unless you take a chance and give them a try (which can cost you several weeks of wasted time if they actually aren’t all that functioning). Whereas a DKP system (or any point-based system, rly) can be judged right from the get-go since all rules are out for everybody to see, and there are ways such as addons that make logs impossible to be tampered with, ensuring 100% transparency. Sure, there’s always a risk of the guild eventually changing their looting rules, but this is unlikely and a risk shared by all systems.
It’s genuinely interesting to see the different opinions on loot distribution “systems” - although this is a small slice of the playerbase, I incorrectly assumed more people would be happy to be part of a LC guild.
Gonna raise it with the rest of the council and (although it’s still super early) see if people would be happier moving to a DKP/EGPG system in the future. Bit late for Classic now though.
Good thing to poll your members about stuff (although not everything lends itself for that), but don’t let a few comments from people who are not for LC throw you off if your members say they prefer LC.
Sure, our guild used to lose applicants sometimes when they heard the word “LC” but probably the leaders of DKP and EPGP guilds have had rejections for being that system if the applicant was in fact looking for a LC.
In fact: the worst things for guild members are system switches. I’ve experienced one (from Suicide Kings to EPGP) and it never is a good timing, you can end up feeling cheated if you’re at the top when it happens. If you do a switch, announce the timing weeks in advance.
DKPs are more prone to make guilds overall perform worse. You guys expect every1 to know what to take and what not in order to get the best upgrade for oneself but it isn’t like that.
A lot of ppl don’t research nor ask and the ones that get butthurt from LC not seconding their every whim will most likely get even more butthurt from being outbid on the same item. In the end it always comes down to how ppl are beyond the simple game mechanics, if you are easily triggerable and don’t care about the guild wellfare then LC will be bad for you, if you don’t like personal wishes to turn into bad item priorities then DKPs systems will be hell for you.
DKP will need DKP decay in order to actually make people spend their points, otherwise they’d just have them stacked up.
Loot council is good as long as there’s actually no favouritism / bias against players.
Like for instance, I’m part of a loot council and most of my class perform similar to each other, so my plan is usually depending on what piece people need, they’d usually get 1 BiS > next player > etc.
All depends on what my class has obtained
This is healer side anyway.
We use a mix of LC and point list. When an item drops that you want, you bid 1, 2 or 3 where your bid decides how much you would drop on the list (3 is to the bottom, 1 and 2 are x% with a minimum).
Then LC comes in, checks if there is a predefined prio first (class, role, main/alt etc.), and then the list comes, and they will see how much you will drop on the list with your bid, and take that information in the decision.
Generally it means the bid with the biggest impact wins the item (bidding 3 when you already are down on the bottom does not have big impact)
Sometimes LC have reasons to reward it to someone else, but all is discussed and explained in raid discord, so no secrecy.
There’s a few prime items that are always LC, and when that is rewarded it will always count as a 3 bid (down to the bottom of the list)
System feels a bit complicated at first, but works like a charm and have not had drama a single time yet so far.
Item prio discussions are there every now and then, and they change over time, but never discuss during raid.
What exactly qualifies, in your mind, as “bad item priorities”? I mean, stuff like orc warriors having prio on Edge of Chaos can definitely be implemented in a DKP system as well. But if you are the kind of person that gets tilted because, say, Joe wins Choker of the Firelord over Bob but Joe had AQ20 neck while Bob had Choker of Enlightenment, then not only you should avoid DKP systems but Classic as a whole is probably too easy for you to begin with.
The difference between the two pros/cons you mentioned is that this one,
is easily fixed, and if you joined a guild you’d know right away if the problem is there or not, whereas
is something that might takes days if not weeks to find out - weeks that can end up being a huge waste if you end up leaving such a guild after having got nothing
Considering a system more fallacious and tilting over it are 2 very different things and you should stop hyperbolizing stuff in order to sustain your arguments.
The thing is: DKP in any form is in the hands of every1 that participates in raids and is a lot more easily exploited by the single crazy lad. LC is a more controlled environment that usually puts items in the place where the guild overall needs it most, bad LCs guilds either fail to progress or disband pretty soon, sooner than bad DKPs ones while good ones progress and farm a lot faster.
LC is a way that corrupt guild leaders exploit thier raiders. My current guild is using a SR system where you can get upto 3 sr if you have WB and Flasks.
Again, I rly can’t see your case if you don’t make specific examples - or, in other words, I can’t see if it’s something easily fixable with some added rules, something so minor that it’s just an issue for you, or an actual serious problem worth discussing.
I mean, “putting items in the place where the guild overall needs it most” can mean a lot of things. Some more or less reasonable than others.
The cases are really a lot, most of which are fixable or sort of fixable by specific assignments and such. But again, it’s still in the hands of ppl how to react to this. Let’s say that some1 saves up for an item but another one gets it because of said priority assignment; the first might very well get pissed off the same way ppl get pissed off at LC decisions.
The difference between the 2 systems is that DKPs are not thought for improving an actual raid composition without any rule borrowed from LC and at that point why not just going for LC all together?
I’m not sure what kind of priority assignment you’re talking about - aside from class/spec priorities (which are known in advance to everybody), I really don’t see why it would be needed for officers to butt in between, say, two mages bidding on the same item. Except in the rare case where the winning bidder actually has a better item (but these cases are genuinely rare from my experience and easily spotted).
It depends on the level of improvement you’re talking about. It’s okay to make sure no loot goes to waste, but I disagree with the idea that items should constantly go wherever they generate the biggest DPS/HPS/TPS/mitigation increase. Which is why I specifically asked you for examples to get what you’re talking about (but you still haven’t provided me any except calling BS on my own examples).
Well but that’s something you can definitely implement in a DKP system as well. Heck, you can even make race-based priorities - for example, you can reserve Edge of Chaos to Orc Warriors in a DKP system. The DKP system simply means said Orc Warriors can decide by themselves how much they’re willing to bid on (or to save for) that item, rather than have to hope the LC agrees with how they feel about it or have to win a roll between the ppl the LC allowed to roll.
DKP has always given me more bad taste than any other loot system. rewarding complete slackers just as much as people putting in max effort, just based on showing up.
Shared items always going to the classes that have fewest competition on the class items because they can save up points.
Classes working their own private loot distribution, taking all their class specific items for minimal bids, so they can outbid other classes on shared items.
People leaving the guild after a raid, and during their final one blowing their DKP on subpar items for them that should normally go to others.
People grabbing multiple contested items in one raid, just because they have a lot of saved DKP (because of earlier mentioned reasons) where other not get single loot in weeks.
Of course everything can be manged, with prio lists, rules for class items, max items, tier set loot distribution outside of dkp, and so on. But IMO if you need to make so much change and exceptions on a system, it only shows that the system at its core is flawed.
By that logic, every legal system ever is flawed and we’d all be better off in a dictatorship - as long as the dictator is “fair”, of course
The presence of additional rules and regulations is normal for any kind of “non-discretional” system, and to understand them as a symptom of a flawed (rather than perfected/improved) system amounts to basically missing the whole point.
As for your single examples:
Classic isn’t so hard that you need to pressure people into flasking every raid and push everything to the max - if you want to play the game like that, well feel free, but a lot of people just don’t enjoy wasting their time like that (and note, I’m the kind of person who flasks every AQ, but I sure as hell don’t waste flasks etc. on something like MC, and to lose loot to somebody stupid enough to do so would make me jump ship immediately).
This is mostly an issue in MC/BWL due to the quirks of the tiering system. In AQ and Naxx there’re a lot less items exclusive to a certain class - certainly not enough to provide a significant DKP advantage over other classes.
Personally, I’ve seen this happen much more rarely than people claim. All it takes is one “defector” - i.e. a person who freely bids regardless of any agreement - and the whole collusion becomes impossible. I’ve seen Ashj’Rethul going for way more DKP than Striker’s Mark, for example.
Any reasonable DKP system has a decay mechanism - if a person has so much DKP that they can grab 2-3 big ticket items in spite of decay, then it means that person spent a LOT of time not earning any item (or the other players are lowballing and deserve to lose their big ticket items).
You keep comparing good DKPs situations with bad LCs though. Good LCs will not question race priorities and such unless the only Orc Warrior is some1 who doesn’t contribute at all to the guild and shows up only for raids.
