I always hear people talking about contributing to the guild, but you can’t put a measure on that or it becomes a no-life race to the max:
not many people do dungeons. If they ping me on discord I would help them out sometimes but they don’t do that.
donation gold or consumables -> lol, good luck with that if you don’t put a cap on that. It will become legalised GDKP if you don’t.
time investment in summoning with buff runs -> I do that but I don’t expect any loot considerations for it. It’s the same as being an officer or GM by choice, you do it to help your guild out.
Point is anything that should be used as performance indicator in a LC setting can be done in-game by a raid logger. Performing well in raids, using consumables…
It doesn’t become a no life race. The help you give to the guild is based on how much you can without damaging your job/family life.
If you are online and decide to help the guild by doing stuff like dungeons or collecting mats that’s a contribution that puts you above who while online joins GDKP runs because he wants to make golds for example.
I would run far from that LC. If you put someone who has no life in donating time/gold/consumables above someone else, even if they choose to do other activities with their game time (like PvP) just means a greedy leadership. They expect people to out-bid each other while reaping the benefits.
As I explained many times before, the reason why I compare the two is that you can tell from the onset whether a DKP system is good or at least transparent. Whereas it takes a much longer time to ascertain if a LC is knowledgeable, trustworthy and fair.
The problem is that, in a LC context, there’s no clarity about how much you’re expected to contribute - which can help incentivize the sort of “no life race” you’re denying.
For a comparison, in my DKP guild, people are allowed every week to donate 25-30g worth of certain mats in order to earn an extra bit of DKP. But they can’t donate more than the amount mentioned to earn even more DKP. This puts a clear, transparent and understandable ceiling to how much contributions are valued that helps recognizing people who do help the guild without incentivizing extreme amounts of no-lifing (or disappointment/drama when said amounts of no-lifing aren’t weighed properly by the LC - at least in the eyes of the member).
In a DKP system, basically, you know from the onset what you’re asked from the guild, and you don’t have to constantly try and outdo your guildmates in the hopes of rising in the LC’s priority system, or surrender yourself to the arbitrary judgment of the guild’s leadership.
Excuse me but why should some1 helping the guild not have a little edge over some1 that only does what is good for him only? The system doesn’t punish the latter either, if the first guy gets a minimum upgrade while for the second it’s a BiS then there are higher chances for the second to take the gear in question.
The edge I am talking about is on same priority/same upgrade value.
Who doesn’t agree that ppl who spend their time to make the guild better deserve more positive feedback from it compared to more selfish ones are better be sticking to retail with personal loot then.
There are problems with every form of loot system it just depends what system you prefer to use. You don’t have to be in a guild with LC there will be guilds you can join with DKP/EPGP/roll.
With loot council you put your trust in them to distribute loot fairly however many LC’s are biased and that is human nature. If everything is looked at from a logical point of view and it truly is based on attendance/performance/general helpfulness/coming to raid prepared then that is a fair loot council however there are many variables that need to be taken into account such as if they base performance on logs then you’ll punish players that have additional roles in the raid such as kiting, tranqing, CC duty, add duty etc. If everything is looked at fairly and accurately then LC is not a bad loot system. The problem is this rarely happens and I’ve found most decisions are influenced by if a player is a friend or if they are just higher on DPS for example even if that player is padding the meters or pulling threat and wiping raids.
EPGP is an alright system but the problem is you get players who hoard points and if a minor upgrade drops then they will pass and a lot of players do this so you’ll get something like the caster neck from Twin Emps being passed because they are saving their points for C’thun drops then you also get players who try to bid OS on gear that is clearly main spec so they don’t have to pay for it or pay half.
DKP is the same only worse as it offers no incentive for new players to join the guild, players who have been raiding for months will have enough points to make sure these players only get a piece of gear after EVERYONE else has already received it. This may seem fair to some but if your not in a top guild (most use LC anyway) that can easily recruit it may end up making your guild look less desirable for someone to join knowing they might not get gear for months. Point hoarding also occurs with DKP so upgrades even if minor do not get bid on. It’s all about them big ticket items.
Rolling would be the system I feel causes the most drama as the unlucky folk might have to wait a long time to get gear plus losing gear to someone who doesn’t have good attendance may annoy a lot of raiders.
I personally feel LC is probably the best system but it’s a system run by players and that leaves it open to being corrupt however if you get a transparent LC who is fair then this isn’t a problem. The other systems can be manipulated by players and rolling is entirely luck based.
Yeah, usually with loot council guilds… trials won’t get priority on loot over raiders.
I mean, why would they.
You imagine, these raiders been raiding with the guild months now and some trial who joined gets the item that never drops on his first week.
Isn’t that just as bad, LC rewards people putting in the effort with world buffs / performance /attendance.
Being forced to spend 200g+ a week for more loot is kinda dumb
All loot systems are flawed in the end
Personal loot alongside that, for instance as you can’t trade higher item level gears to others(Can be useless for your class, but useful for others)
Well, for that matter, you can’t steal items from long-term guildies in a DKP format either - since the trial just won’t have enough DKP to compete. The difference is that the DKP system offers you a clear and transparent path at the end of which you’ll be on the same foot as everyone else (basically once you have enough DKP). Whereas in LC you’re at the mercy of other people’s arbitrary judgment. I’ve seen guilds where, even after as long as 3 months you were basically still behind in prio on every big ticket item compared to “veterans” - which is silly.
Again, the problem isn’t that LC rewards these sorts of activities per se. It’s that there’s no clear and known ceiling to these activities, which risks creating an arms race between players trying to outdo each other in contributing to the guild so that they can get ahead in loot prio. Which may sound good and all, but in practice ends up creating a toxic environment where people are constantly racing to do more and more. Sorry but this is still a game and a pathetically easy one at that, if somebody feels bad because they don’t get all the items after they spent 8 hours a day boosting guild alts or stuff like that, they’re free to go play somewhere else.
And before you say that’s another hyperbole… is it, really? How do you even know what the LC considers a sane/healthy amount of played time? As opposed, say, with a DKP system that states in clear terms what you can do outside raiding to earn a bit extra DKP if you so choose?
DKP is bad at the same time, since it also rewards bad players that can show up without consumes / world buffs etc, whilst people who actually turn up with world buffs / consumes are on the same loot table as them.
It all depends on whether you have a corrupt loot council
Don’t people always say that you don’t need full consumables/world buffs for Classic anyway? I mean, I generally flask and use most elixirs, for example, but I rarely bother getting wbuffs besides ZG/Ony. Should I have lower priority than somebody who does all this and also gets DM/Songflower just because… ?
Technically yes because DM+Songflower edge will, equal player skill accounted for, result in those players doing better.
That said, I know a couple of DKP/EPGP guilds that just advertise not requiring wbuffs/consumables, which means you could potentially attract more like minded players that don’t mind equal footings between people who put in extra preparation and those who don’t.
Well, that kinda explains why I don’t bother with LC in Vanilla^^
I mean, doing well in, say, WotLK generally implies being a skilled player who can perform flawlessly in raids. Doing well in Vanilla generally means nolifing on buffs/consumables and minmaxing to the must. For a game that, unlike WotLK, requires none of those things. Sorry but I’d rather join a more relaxed guild that clears the same exact content but without demanding that much from me.
I’m talking more about people who don’t get any world buffs at all, not even Onyxia/ZG.
I don’t really consider DM/songflower into my LC decisions(I’m a healer, so I deal with healer loot)
It’s kinda why I don’t like world buffs in classic, it’s such a performance changer.
But why would you give somebody who doesn’t even bother getting onyxia or ZG loot over people who perform a lot better?
Because they’re not really needed in the first place? I mean, I generally take them when I can, but I’ve run without a couple times and it’s not the end of the world - as a caster, at least. Especially if you’re gonna lose them to some random death before the end of the two hours anyway. And I sure as heck don’t get 'em for something like BWL or MC, unless by chance.
They’re not really needed, but if the person is performing a lot inferior to others due to not getting buffs, it’ll be demotivating for the people putting in the effort that the guy performing a lot less is getting the BIS that never drops over somebody who always performs well.
