wow makes you want to do HC.
Whilke we´re at it, can we get the duration set to an hour?
Because as it stands, they´re usually wasting an hour or more of other people´s collective time (4x15 minutes) while they have to wait for their (usually critical, i.e. tank or healer) slot to get refilled.
Especially since they´re going to whine about getting deserter anyway, that way they at least have something to whine about…
Or even bettter, if they get say 3-4-5 deserters in a 24 h period, 48h Random queue ban.
Seriously, this lesson of “Don´t run around being an antisocial prick just because you think you can” needs to be driven home with a vengeance…
That said, if we get deserter back, especisally if it get´s “buffed” and /or the meta punishment added, it really, REALLY has to be set up that a votekick does not grant deserter as is the current case on Classic, because with the toxic hyperrush mentality that has prevalent on retail for way too long, where even a fresh tank or healer will get often get kicked for daring to learn how to play their class in casual content or a dps will get kicked for not playing a meta spec before the first boss is pulled, all it would really do is further punish the victims who are already saddled with having to requeue and twidle their thumbs for 15+ minutes.
M0 is not random queuable content, so the debuff will not aply there either way.
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It used not to in the past, and then the “critical roles” would just straight up say “I don’t need this dungeon, please kick so I can requeue thx”. There’s a reason why leaving before first boss and getting kicked incurred debuffs to present-day debuffery.
And now it gets even stricter after people just saying “thx 4 loot I leave now”, again.
We even have follower dungeons for normals now and people still decide to be poor in player dungeons.
I know.
In the same past, as we speak of early cataclysm here, the votekick system wasn´t also regularly used as just another way to troll players who were deemed suboptimal for some arbitrary reason, in the very content they were supposed to be running to get to a more optimal level.
Literally all of the votekicks I have personally been on the receiving end of were for daring to not hyperrush an NHC instance as a non-max level tank or healer still learning the spec, or for daring to play a firemage at all.
If a tank or healer wants to get votekicked at the start of the instance, tehn what needs to happen is that 4 people need to report him for griefing so his account can be properly sanctionend. If they want to leave, then f them, definitely NOT going to kick them, and I´ll block every vote that tries. No, Let them leave themselves and get the debuff like everyone else.
Just because someone else want´s to be a diva doesn´t mean we have to accept it, and we have been accepting and tolerating it for way too long.
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Can we do something to drive home the lesson that doing unreasonably low dps, not interrupting, not using stuns, not using stops, not using defensive CDs and mitigation skills, etc is tainting the experience for others, too?
Because that is pretty antisocial as it makes the runs for the rest of the people in the group much worse, too!
Absolutely not. You sound like you want to hold the rest of the group hostage. If you’re a problem (see above) and make runs worse for the other four people, you should face the very consequences you propose other players face. It is not fun to carry dead weight and waste time because some players expect to be carried. Play with friends if you want that.
OK so I queue up, kill the boss I want and then when I don’t get the loot I go afk so I don’t get deserter great ideas all around
With all due respect, If you´re running NHC or even HC dungeons and expecting a group that knows all the mechanics, especially less than a week after the expansion launched, then the primary problem is not the other players but rather your own lofty expectations.
And that´s my issue, if you´re not already 580+ and a VDH, Afflilock, Shadowpriest, Fury warrior or Holypriest, you´re already “dragging down teh gruop” in the misguided opinion of the vast majority, even though the vast majority of that same majority can´t fulfill those criteria themselves…
People should absolutely not be punished for being casual players queuing for casual faceroll content, but that is in essence exactly what you are advocating by bringing up arbitrary DpS minimums and lack of cc in the very content where any sane person would expect to have to deal with these things because it´s teh very place where these people are supposed to learn them. 
It´s like your driving instructor flaming you for not being Michael Schumacher the first time you get behind the wheel…the whole reason you´re there in teh first playce is to learn, not to get flamed for not already being better than he is. 
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Actually, I don’t really expect anything and have had only smooth runs, but I found your sanctimonious and entitled attitude aggravating, hence my response.
I pointed out that you’re asking for severe punishments for behaviors you dislike, but want full protection for the opposite type of behavior that equally affects others negatively.
The fact of the matter is that random people do not owe you anything. Their time is not less valuable than your time, and your enjoyment doesn’t matter more than theirs. That applies to everyone, regardless of which side of playstyle preferences someone is on. That is also why it’s always best to play with friends or acquaintances who share your preferences.
I have done a fair number of random TWW HCs since they were enabled, all of them as a healer, and I have not seen anything you describe. I have seen a total of zero vote kicks. The reason for that is that these heroics are trivial content already now. Dawnbreaker can be a little rocky because it’s not intuitive, but besides that it doesn’t really matter who is in the group. As long as the tank roughly knows the way and the healer pays a little attention, the runs are fast.
I don’t know why it is that my in-game experiences seem so often at odds with forum claims about alleged toxic behaviors that are these huge deals that need to get urgently addressed. In my experience, most people in dungeons are either completely quiet and do their thing or they are helpful if someone asks a question or seems to struggle.
I see significantly more toxicity on the WoW forums than I do in the actual game playing with random players.
Get rid of loot drops and do one chest at end of dungeon with all loot, back filling dungeons really sucks when queue times are already super long.
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On this we agree 100%, it´s why I spend 90% of my playtime within my guild.
However, it also cuts both ways: if you sign up for a random queued group and expect anything more than 4 people that were randomly pulled off the street that just barely managed to somehow scratch the minimum gear together and don´t have the slightest clue what they´re doing, that´s your own failure to properly judge the situation you´re getting in to.
Because there is no “you must do x DPS requirement and interrupt at least x casts” requirement to join an RDF group. Going AFK for no communicated reason is obvious griefing, reportable, and the best possible reason for getting kicked… and it´s more or less the only reason that has any legitimacy in RDF groups IMO, because almost everything else comes with the territory and absolutely should be expected.
But without exception every single NHC run on altrs or HC run on mains since official release has been rife with elitist BS. I don´t have to deal with it more than 2-3 x a day when my guildieas are already off for the night, but I do also know why I would never recommend this game to a friend as well as why my wife quit after leveling to 70… that being the ingame community in general, their personal delusions of grandeur, and the resulting toxic elitism that has bled down to even teh most irrelevant contanet possible… as soon as there´s an intance portal, you’re universally expected to either be Gingi’s long lost twin or just uninstall becasue you´ll never be good, anyway.
And for the most part the very same people that reek of that attitude also have no problem repeatedly votekicking anyone they deem suboptimal , saddling multiple people with undeserved deserter debuffs just for being “stupid” enough to queue for a random dungeon and expect to actually get a chance to play the game after waiting 15 minutes. Basically, it feels like “Sorry, but you queued on an SV hunter, you don’t deserve to play with us, so have fun with your 30 minute break”. has become more the norm than the exception. And that´s the entire reason why I´m against giving deserter for votekicks.
If people would use the tools provided as intended and not constantly see them as a convenient way to troll people who did nothing wrong other than being inexperienced, in teh very content designed for tehm to acquire tha exerience*, then there would be a discussion to be had.
Because we´re not talking about M+ here, we´re talking about content that we both agree is facerollable by any bonobo with a keyboard, BY DESIGN… HC slightly less so after teh changes to dungeon structure, but we all “know” any semi competent player finds no challenge in M0 inis 2 weeks after release, I´m fairly certain that I´m not the only person that regularly does the Mythic weekly quest by just soloing 4 m0s in quick succession…
I agree that the forums are a notch worse and the issues can seem overblown here. But that still does not in any way , shape, or form excuse the toxicity that wannabes and cryhards have made all instanced content from currrent endgame all the way down to RFC /DM NHC rife with.
The primary difference its that a paltry sum of the players in any given game actually use the forums, so nobody really cares, while the ingame behavior directly impacts the experience of hundreds of thousands of players that just want to play the game as intended.
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I did this in DF, while farming the rings for the Otter mount.
I just have never seen it, and I don’t feel there is even an objective reason why anyone would bother in TWW so far. The TWW heroics are easy. These aren’t Cataclysm-at-launch type of heroics. I’ve seen all sorts of specs in my groups, and I’ve seen players doing less damage than me, the healer. Nobody said anything.
I understand why people are picky in M+, and I put the blame for that not on the players, but on Blizzard’s balancing and tuning. But everything works in the TWW heroics, and I’ve not seen anyone complain about low dps or tanks pulling too much.
I won’t say it doesn’t happen. But with the number of heroics I’ve ran this week (probably 40 or so! - instant queues for healers and most runs are under 15 minutes), I feel I should have encountered it at least once if it was really the norm rather than the exception.
I suppose all I’m trying to get across is that I feel that this community is better than its reputation.
I wouldn’t necessarily disagree, but I do currently feel that the community has for the most part exactly the reputation it deserves.
Part of this may also be a language difference, as I play on a german realm and therefore my RDF queues are with other german speakers. It´s entirely possible that things o n teh english speakig realms are seen in a more chill manner, as germans famously have no sense of humor, unless the joke involves somebody getting hurt… and after almost 50 years of living there, it´s still hard to find a proper counterargument to that with an actual basis in reality. 
But that doesn´t make them immune to being self-enveloped Divas, either… Just yesterday I was in a Dawnbreaker run where the healer was literally afking at he start (when a mage is topping you in the healmeter, you´re not healing for poo) and the tank asked if the heal was afk before pulling the first boss… heal replied with “No, it´s because you suck”, while still standing at the ini entrance, then a vote against the tank was started which was unfortunately successful…
That Protwarri, that performed absolutely fine under the circumstances, only wanted to ensure that the group had a chance of actually killing the boss before proceeding… and he was punished with a votekick for it. I contacted him afterwards, and He´s now a member of my guild and wishes he had found us 10 years ago because now running instances is fun again, we spent all day today in discord farming valorstones enjoying the non-pug life
I also play on a German realm! Actually, I had been wondering if that may be the reason why my experience differs so substantially from yours, but that can’t be it since we play in the same realm pool.
Anyway, I hope your dungeon running experience improves! If I ran into unpleasant people often, I’d probably pug less. I mostly pug as much as I do lately because Life is Horde and my WoW friends of many years are all Alliance (I used to be Alliance too before I quit some years ago). Sadly we can’t do queueable content together, so it’s been solo RDF for me, except for a couple times where I grabbed a newer Horde-playing friend or two.
Echt? Dann hab ich wohl wirklich immer nur das Glück irgendwelche Ego-Pfeifen zugeteilt zu bekommen, hahaha prost
But, just for the record, it´s not so much my personal dungeon experience that concerns me. Again, i do almost everything internally, and we even run with mixed faction groups when necessary becasue flying 2 minutes from dungeon 1 to dungeon 2 is not exactly a chore with Skyriding. We already have semi fixed groups for M0 in 2 weeks… not because we “need” to, but because none of want to deal with the cesspool that pugging represents, so we´d rather just talk with each other 2 weeks in advance and set up a framework for who´s running when so that everyone has a chance to get geared for raiding… but we also aren´t doing things like setting a euphoric ilvl 600 minimum for NHC raid like some guilds, 480 should be just fine at the level most of us play at, and at the latest 2 weeks later we´ll probably be running HC, anyway.
But as far as the pure pugging experience goes, I would say it´s about a 50/50 crapshoot whether you get a chill group or a toxic one, maybe even 25/75 in favor of the chill groups but the negatives just stay in your head longer because of how humans are wired. But if that little bit of pugging already annoys myself and most of my guild to the point where we refuse to invite more than one pug into raids, and all but one of us categorically refuse to pug M+, and would rather try Mythic bosses with 18 people than invite even one pug, and then look back on things like my wife´s uncurated leveling experience (she didn´t want me to carry her but wanted the full expereince, and as a result the communitly lost a FF14 Ultimate grade healer before her career in WoW ever really started), or just level an alt from 0 for the lulz…
Yeah, I don´t even want to imagine how bad it is for the average casual that has no guild or a non-cohesive one and is therefore forced to either run random or not experience the content… I personally would probaly quit the game in that situation
Be modest, your best Rio is only 2,642
And there`s a very simple reason for that: M+ is boring AF, the only thing it´s good for is aspect crests and a mythic vault slot, I couldn’t care less about a portal to an instance I won’t see for the next 5 years.
That doesn´t in any way mean I can´t and haven’t cleared keys higher than 90% of the playerbase… that’s teh problem with using numbers and not understanding what they actually mean, like demonizing someone’s gray log without understanding that his sacricice was the only reason teh boss was able to be killed.
Preaching modesty requires someone to be overestimating their own skills… I doid not say we would be clearing mythic raid in week 3, nor did i say I would be running 15s… faceroll content is faceroll content.
In TWW you need to do +10 keys for 1/6 myth loots in the vault.
Thank god, if you want mythic rewards, the least you should have to do is deal with all the affixes. Finally some actual balance in the system instead of 8s being just another way for people to outgear raid content they can´t otherwise clear.
But if you´re already stalking my raider IO, you easily can see that 10s have never been a significant problem.
Dungeons should be short enough to not take more than 30 min.
Often the difficulty of some instances also lay in how long you are stuck in there rather than the difficulty of the fights.