You do realise that everything that Horde did in the last expansions (starting from Cata) was evil?
Southshore, Theramore, Brennadam, Silverwind refuge, etc.
When hordies were “the conquerors”, everything was good. When the retaliation was due, every hordie started to complain about “alliance bias”.
All Alliance outposts and cities obliterated by Horde, were actually “military targets”. But Taurajo and Purge of Dalaran (with minimal casualties) were “genocides”.
Not true, they will remain around as long as they have people to raise!
Agreed!
No, the void elves are the smallest Thalassian faction around, smaller then even the Highvale and Silver Covenant.
Gilnean worgen make human babies tho, not worgen babies. So they too can eventually dissappear if they so wish.
Never truly were anyway, race traitors that they are. Even during the Second War they said the orcs were most likely under influence of demons and fel magic and they worked on a cure after the Second War (with no succes!), they and Terenas wished to rehabilitate them and make them proper citizens of Lordaeron and Dalaran!
I hope it becomes a Forsaken nation, just so they can have two factions with different philosophies.
Maybe Lordaeron Forsaken can turn to Calia and Alterac Forsaken could keep the old Forsaken way?
Appearances can be decieving Besides I think thats more gameplay over lore thing since Blizzard reused ingame assets to rebuild Stromgarde and couldn’t give them red roofs anymore because red = Horde, blue = Alliance.
But it does have it’s own king Danath Trollbane that does exert his own control over the Arathi Highlands, hence why Turalyon and Alleria asked his permission to move through and chase Horde through his nation!
Sadly mana-bombs aren’t as strong as the one used in THeramore because no Focusing Iris… :Grumble:
The ones utilised in Outland were still extremely nasty leaving it irradiated, messing up their spirits/ghosts and manifesting wild mana elementals out of the immideately obvious effects.
Evil in warfare is a question of perspective more so than anything else. Both MoP and BfA had the idiotic idea to turn the Horde into the villain of it’s own narrative, which actively prevented them from exploring their perspective on any of those mostly off screen events only to then make them look like fools and make their defeats massive humiliating events. The only time Aliance got a taste of that medicine was aftermath of Teldrassil and whined about it for the next two expansions.
I personally don’t much care for some high-score so long as characters act consistently and react like they should. Jaina’s ethnic cleansing of Dalaran was a solid character moment, with downfalls regarding Vereesa’s character assassination and nonexistent fallout an expansion later, with Aethas one of the victims looking for forgiveness. In the same vein Greymane’s rampage across Stormheim made sense in isolation, when you forget about the whole end of the world and very tenuous “peace”, with basically only Admiral Rogers getting chewed out for crashing the airship meant to help in search for the Aegis.
That Mana Bomb would have been created by the returned Sunfury.
So with the power of the Iris, I thought the Theramore Mana Bomb would have had even more power than the Netherstorm ones they made.
It was. The Terrokar and Netherstorm ones have left the area mostly intact outside of the effects i said previously, whilst having severe consequences for living creatures. Theramore mana-bomb was so powerful it disintegrated most of the island. An Azerite Mana-Bomb would likely be somewhere between depending on the amount used.
Actually Cata (and the beginning of BFA) had the idea of turning the Horde into villain. Both MoP and end of BfA were made to use warchief/jailer to scapegoat Horde.
And about those “defeats massive humiliating events”, can you show me in game one defeat of Horde by alliance? One, just one.
Let’s see the “fist buping/pumping”:
SoO - Alliance helping Vol’jin to get rid of Garrosh
Purge of Dalaran - was not a victory, was some undefined mess
Siege of Lordaeron - was a trap made by Sylvanas. If not for 2 stupid “deus ex machina”, all Alliance leaders would have died.
Battle for Dazar’whatever - It was not against Horde, it was against the “then-unafiliated” Zandalari. And Alliance didn’t do anything there, except killing Rastakhan and then fleeing. Biiiig victory, yay!
Warfronts. So far nothing is shown in the game. Both Darkshore and Arathi are contested.
I don’t know about you, I would preferred some Alliance retaliation to put things back to balance. And you could keep Garrosh as warchief. But the “Alliance biased” devs didn’t want horde players to feel a defeat.
Maybe it was because Jaina was right and Aethas hat reasons to look for forgiveness. Yes, I know, in you mind, Alliance side can never be right. But from time to time, even devs must do the right thing.
It’s fine for the Horde to be the aliance’s villain and vice versa. It’s idiotic to turn the Horde on itself twice, because it makes everyone involved look like a bunch of idiots, whilst blizzard is shooting it’s ability to tell the story in the leg, with a bazooka.
(The Cata zone revamps were largely there to remedy issues related to Horde zones being fewer and extremely subpar. The story then had to bend around the gameplay oriented changes. (With the Stonetalon story basically being Afrasiabi’s self proclaimed mistake))
False equivalency. Key narrative issue here is that the “good” Horde characters can’t seem capable of earnestly opposing the Aliance, whilst majority of the solutions to Horde problems wind up being “Be more like the Aliance”, which has been a trend since basically TBC. When the Horde playerbase talks about Aliance bias it’s not about who won more battles, but who the story and moral grandstanding revolves around, because as you may have noticed over the past decade there never was a story, where it was elaborated upon why the Horde may have been in the right always bending itself over backwards to make the Aliance cast look great. Key example Anduin. Name a single non-evil character that ever opposed him and didn’t end up grovelling in front of his human potential.
Taking advantage of inner turmoil to get a result you like and end up in an overall dominant position? Basically everyone other than Jaina on A side got what they wanted.
It was a messy situation, which butchered the characters involved, for the sake of progressing Jaina, yes.
Yes, the actual writing of the battle is GoT season 8 levels of stupid, but ultimately resulted in the Horde losing control of the region despite having spent a decade fortifying and consolidating preparing for this very scenario. It was way less costly than it actually should have been, if the story team could keep even a smidge of consistency.
Obliterated the Zandalari fleet and killed the king, with minimal casualties and barely a few scratches. Achieving everything they set out to do and getting out unscathed is a decisive victory. (all the while removing everything the Horde player achieved in the expansion thus far)
Both canonically Aliance victories, even if Blizz was too lazy to reflect it in game.
Also you forgot Stormheim where Greymane effectively sentenced the Forsaken to extinction (small detail i know)
Ah yes, the something done by a mercenary he didn’t know about regarding an item he never heard of. Anyone in his position would go “Yep i deserved it” after going through an ethnic cleansing… for sure
I agree 100%. Again, I would have been very happy with some alliance retaliation, and Horde keeping warchief and honour, but Blizzard preferred to mess everything up. Instead to give a Alliance victory, they preferred to “kill” Garrosh. BTW, Garrosh seemed to me a better warchief for orcish Horde than anyone else.
I agree 100% here. But they could make it nice for the Horde without pissing on alliance players. If you leveled up an Alliance alt in Cata time you would understand. “We lost here, we lost there, we won in Western plaguelands, but we need to retreat because reasons, we won at stonard, but we will retreat”, and so on.
Well, of course they cannot speak about who won more battles, because all Horde wins are in the game, but for the Alliance ones, you need to buy a book. It is like I tell you: Yay, you won 10.000.000 dollars/euros and a yacht. Yes, they are both virtual and you cannot use them or do anything, but you won. Why are you not happy?
Tell me what advantage had Alliance after MoP? In game, of course. Not in a book and in a cutscene where Varian went to that empty threat “we will and you”. They didn’t even bother to show some tanks and ancients of war standing in Orgrimmar. I think that at least that could be done, for morale of Alliance players.
Who pushed the button and detonated all the plague? If they cared for Alliance players morale, Undercity could be destoyed by Alliance. But no, Alliance cannot have any victory.
And who was the stupid one there? “Muzzle your dog”.
That could be done in a quest.
Actually they were set out to severe the alliance between Horde and Zandalari. Tell me what they achieved there.
While I can accept that using “hit and run tactics”, doing some damage and disapearing is a nice idea, they didn’t do that. They failed to capture Rastakhan, and then fled. Of course the “gelbin get invulnerable in his pod” and Jaina just left, were stupid endings for the raid.
If Jaina can do that, why didn’t she do that every time? And where the beep is that ghost ship with magic cannons?
“But Blizz didn’t reflect Alliance victories in the game.” My favorite 70’s band name.
Tell me, when will someone be unable to play as a forsaken? In BFA? In Shadowlands? In Dragonflight? We all know this is bull$%^&*. Something to make Alliance players to feel good, but without any end in the game. Something like “we will end you”. We all know that is some words in the wind.
You know very well that in the game (Horde part), Aethas knew everything about that. But preferred to have Jaina’s wrath instead of Garrosh’s. Come on, man! ™
The Alliance doesn’t deserve victories. YOu are all scum. I will celeberate the day when we burn another of your cities and kill your leaders.
The only Cata zone, where Aliance gets it’s stuff kicked in from my memory is Southern Barrens, while they do get their own pushbacks in the likes of Redridge and Ashenvale. Gilneas is a special scenario, because that was a plot device to make the Worgen join the Aliance and the Aliance to even entertain accepting them due to Greymane having some very bad rep, from the Second war onward.
The two big Horde wins are treated as something terrible that should have never happened and were used as the surprise shock twist… only to proceed to get mudholes stomped in their rear ends for the rest of the expansion, while the aliance affiliated leaders were waving their indexfingers, at how terrible we are. Not fun either.
Basically diplomatic nonsense so that they didn’t have to change anything… and then they got distracted by the War Crimes novel and WoD. However it was framed that way, at the time. With Wrathion throwing a tantrum that Varian chose to make peace instead of pushing the issue.
Short list of the biggest offenders:
-Lack of Horde fortifications
-Lack of Blood Elf naval support
-Aliance not bringing gas masks to the one place they would need them
-Everything concerning Jaina
-VEs/Gnomes teleporting in for dramatic effect
-Saurfang trying to commit suicide by Aliance
It was a colossal letdown, because it was a major thread, which has been built up to basically since WC3 and escalated in Cata. The Forsaken have been consolidating and fortifying that area for decades, in combination with the Sin’dorei naval ports flanking any approach, from that side. If they didn’t have planet sized plot armor the Aliance would be dead, with the tactics they employed. Taking down the Undercity, if at all possible should have been a massive campaign. See the problem? This is like the Horde suddenly popping up in Ironforge, with no real explanation of how the hell they even got there.
Srsly? Putting aside how stupid it made the Zandalari look for a second the reason they sought to break up the aliance was the Zandalari naval power.
By attacking him and sacking his home? Right… If they really wanted to capture him then they’d have brought some means of restraining him, as compared to beat it up until it stops moving.
8.1 generally consisted of the Horde player’s achievements getting undone and buried. Earn Rastakhan’s favor? dead Save the Zandalari so their fleet may assist you? Destroyed Heist for storm mc guffin? Stolen by the aliance Derek? Handed over by Baine… Seriously the only thing that stuck was bloody Mag’har Orcs.
There is no way for new Forsaken to rise since Sylvanas departed, with last of the Val’kyr, until that gets retconned somehow. I don’t blame you for thinking that way, because there was next to no emphasis on just how devastating the consequences of preventing their method of reproduction are.
The closest to admission of any such thing he got back then was squirming uncomfortably. Not the issue here however. The problem is that he is just over it in like 2 years or whatever and doesn’t even seek assurance that it will not happen again.
Hmm, I’m not sure you’re right - in a rose-tinted world, sure Genn is happy in Stormwind. But is that not just because the Worgen have nowhere else to go?
Even the Scarlet Crusade disagree at this point I think…well, at least about the first half of the sentence 
also because of mirroring, I think if the Alliance got Lordaeron back, the Horde would conquer the whole Ashenvale and possibly Darkshore too, defeating the Night Elves again. It’s not like it would be very difficult for the Orcs to do it at this point, but not a lot of people would really like to see it, even most Horde players at this point I think…
the races from the south of both Eastern Kingdoms and Kalimdor (especially Humans and Orcs) need to chill out and stop waging war against the races of the north of these continents that have suffered more than enough and overall the races of the north in their history have suffered way more than the ones in the south because of war ( I’m talking about Forsaken, Blood Elves, Night Elves, Draenei, mainly because of direct attacks of the Scourge and Burning Legion against them)
Hopefully with 9.2.5 around the corner we get an update on the current state of the Forsaken. I’m curious to know how geopolitics of Lordaeron and the North have changed in general.
Given those propaganda texts from the Scarlet Crusade/Botherhood added end of BFA, I have a feeling they’ll play a significant part in the future events there.
If I had to speculate, given they’re no longer in a position for any sort of direct confrontation, so they’d most likely want to manipulate events from behind these scenes for now whilst they attempt to reorganise and rebuild their ranks. The rebranding to a brotherhood even makes them sound like some sort of underground illuminati movement. This would be they’re best bet to achieve a return to form and power in the region. So what better time to do so with Anduin, the legitimate leader of the Alliance, planning to go AWOL and Sylvanas and Nathanos no longer in the picture as well. Given they’re track record current conditions are somewhat a stroke of good luck for them.
For example, they could achieve this by further stoking tensions between Greymane and the Gilneans) against the Forsaken. This way they turn the animosity of Gen and his Worgen kin into a hammer against their shared enemy whilst simultaneously weakening two races they view as aberrations that need to be ultimately purged. They pretty much lay out this intention in the following in game text. https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/The_Cursed_Old_Wolf
Another thing they could do is cosy up to Turalyon and play on his ambitions to reclaim the old Alliance territory. So you could see some sort of coalition there if a few court nobles back in Stormwind are sympathetic to the Scarlet cause and push for it politically. Maybe a few of them see it as opportunity to expand their own influence and holdings or reclaim their previously held lands too if xpats? That said, although this is pure speculation as there is still nothing in game as of yet to suggest it could happen, I wouldn’t be surprised if we saw something along these lines appear in future content.
Another alliance fanatic. They are crawling around like vermin here. Go back to Stormwind where yoou belong goat man.
It’s funny how this is always said about Lordaeron, yet those Forsaken are the same Humans who lived in Lordaeron during their life times and in their undeath.
Just like how Quel’Thalas belongs to those Elves who have pledged themselves to defend it and chose not to leave and join the Alliance.
Just like how Suramar belongs to those Highborne Night Elves who remained in the City and became the Shal’dorei.
It’s also ironic how it’s the Alliance races who essentially pushed the current people of these places to the Horde. The Night Elves pushing the Blood Elves and Nightborne to the Horde, both of whom had some Sylvanas-involvement at some point, is truly ironic.
what about all of the living lordaeron citizens?
like the ones who were refuges to stormwind
They can die and join us. No problem. You can get Calia in exchange. She is a worthless thing anyway.
The majority of survivors from Lordaeron (with a good portion of High Elves too) were in Theramore with Jaina actually, not in Stormwind. For some reason they preferred to stay there rather than return to Lordaeron and fight for their old homeland…and then Garrosh with the mana bomb happened… 
When Jaina first meets Tyrande and the Kaldorei, she specifically states that she is the leader of the Human survivors of Lordaeron.
I mean, time passes on and some of those Humans from Theramore possibly traveled to places like Stormwind, Ironforge and Darnassus.
Turalyon and the Stormwind Nobles:
"Let’s go and reclaim the Kingdom of Lordaeron for Ol’Emma who was from there…she and her bucket will surely appreciate the “fresh water” that it’s there now (especially in Undercity) 
(and basically the same logic could be applied to Alleria, the small handful of her Void Elves, and Quel’thalas, since she stated she wants to bring Silvermoon back to the Alliance )