M+ as "race against time" is bad concept - Ideas of Non-Timed M+ mode

[Ðragon-the-maelstrom]

@Vomlir-nagrand

No.

Well that’s what you implemented.

@Vomlir-nagrand

It’s not better according to the majority.

Nobody talking about the majority, the context was business.

@Vomlir-nagrand

A good game design means you are allowed to play at your pace.

Which we are.
There is a difference playing at your own pace or playing at the top.

@Vomlir-nagrand

forces to you to play even if you don’t have time for it, resulting in demotivation and game quiting down the line since you feel like you are left out after a certain period of time. That’s why it feels like it’s closed.

Well, what you call “closed”, I call simply boring. FF14 and GW2 are best examples. In GW2 I logged in, played a round, got bored, quit. Nothing to do. (besides the PvP being boring) No goals. FF14 same stuff. Joining a raid, killing the same few bosses, no long term progress. Done.
If I wanted to play some sort of moba, I guess I would. But I want to play a MMORPG and progress on my character.

@Vomlir-nagrand

No it’s not their choice.

Really? So if I don’t want to play with you, it’s not my choice? Weird.

@Vomlir-nagrand

You just explained yourself why it’s not their choice.

Don’t think you read properly.

@Vomlir-nagrand

It’s poop in general that’s the point.

How is that poop for me if I am allowed to choose who I want to play with? Since when is free choice poop?

@Vomlir-nagrand

Yeah, that’s the point, once you are left out, you feel like it’s a closed system since some people are in and you are out. That’s what we mean when we say it’s closed. Therefore, it is closed. You basically just admitted it yourself.

So Blizzard should give hand out free max gear for everyone? This is the case in some other games and the majority simply doesn’t play the end game because there is no point. In FF14 Yoshi P even tells people to play other games. I am not choosing and paying for a game, just to go and play something else because the game lacks stuff to keep me playing.

[Wushupanda-outland]

when i ran raids in tbc, do you have any idea how many times i restricted holy palla from my raids ? good or bad, i didnt truth them. you got plate ? go fight. id rather bring a priest or a druid. plus, they dont ninja MY warlock dagger !

this is wow. this what wow always was.

sometimes i hear some weird stories about “back in the day we brought in everyone and just had fun with it”. NO. it never happened. actually wow was alot more toxic. today everyone got old and dont really care that much.

[Montaron-frostmane]

@Lynlia-silvermoon

TL:DR Pretty much gut m+ of any form of challenge what’s so ever and make it as a free loot pinnata.
+15s awards heroic level loot(more or less) so it should offer a “heroic raid” level type difficulty.
Otherwise…why the hassle anyway? Just have Blizzard send the items to your mailbox and be done with it?

Interesting opinion, considering the untimed M+ would have exactly the same difficulty as timed one, minus the time limit, and the only way to upgrade the key or get M+ score would remain in timed M+.
If the only difficulty in an RPG is coming from time limits, that alone would be horrible design, go play Forza in that case. Anyway, it obviously is not in WoW, just like difficulty of Heroic raids has nothing to do with time limits either, so i don’t understand your comparison.

Only competitive part of M+ is the score, since the untimed players can’t get the score, how exactly would this affect or degrade competitiveness of M+? And try to think before you type something this time.

[Lynlia-silvermoon]

@Montaron-frostmane

nteresting opinion, considering the untimed M+ would have exactly the same difficulty as timed one

You couldn’t be more wrong. Timer is the challenge, organizing your CDs, decide when to hero, how big large packs to pull. Making the most efficient route, if the tank is experienced = also pulling around dps CD availability.
Without a timer - Just use hero on every pack and wait out those 10 mins before next pull. No rush right?

[Elahri-silvermoon]

@Montaron-frostmane

considering the untimed M+ would have exactly the same difficulty as timed one

It isn’t the exactly same difficulty.

You have to manage your cooldowns instead of just waiting for them to come back all the time and so forth.

It’s infinitely easier with no timer to beat.

[Parelia-argent-dawn]

@Evokus-ravencrest

Because MS was world wide.

Was?

@Evokus-ravencrest

what killed tbe servers in the 40v40 shaman v paladin duel. That was MS

Yes, and? Its not like wow today has no server problems Glares at Azure

@Evokus-ravencrest

FPS was raid only

I dont see how that is an issue since if you simply had a geforce 4400 or radeon 9800x you do be fine, which most people had at the time.

Semptron, Celeron, didnt reeally matter much because wow was actually a very light weight game

[Montaron-frostmane]

@Lynlia-silvermoon

Timer is the challenge

we had challenging content decade before M+ even existed, and suddenly the ONLY challenge is the time limit? I am pretty sure Blizzard could do better.
Besides, no one is taking your “challenge” out of your sweaty pro mode, me and plenty of others don’t and wont participate in it with untimed modes existing or not. If the tryhards are enough to pay the bills and exec’s jets, so be it then.

there is a thing about fame and prestige - it matters only if there is anyone left around to care.

[Lynlia-silvermoon]

@Montaron-frostmane

we had challenging content decade before M+ even existed, and suddenly the ONLY challenge is the time limit? I am pretty sure Blizzard could do better.

Different challenges is always a welcome sight. I dont want m+ to simply become a 5 man “raid”. Want a relaxed non-timed environment? Go raid then, no timers there besides berserk “timer”.

@Montaron-frostmane

me and plenty of others don’t and wont participate in it

Then don’t? Me and plenty others are enjoying m+ just fine thanks. I don’t like rated PvP, but I am not campaigning to have it removed or made some kind of “PvE hybrid”. Don’t like it, don’t play it. Simple. No drama. No fuss.

@Montaron-frostmane

If the tryhards are enough to pay the bills and exec’s jets, so be it then.

“Give me give me, never gets”. No need to be salty about it.

[Montaron-frostmane]

and again not a single argument how would it affect current M+ mode players. The same “i am having fun, so **** the rest” crap over and over.

[Vomlir-nagrand (Vomlir)]

@Ðragon-the-maelstrom

Well that’s what you implemented.

Nope i didn’t.

@Ðragon-the-maelstrom

Nobody talking about the majority, the context was business.

We did. Even in business context it is best for Blizz to appeal to the majority of its playerbase.

@Ðragon-the-maelstrom

Which we are.
There is a difference playing at your own pace or playing at the top.

“The top” is certainly not a mere +15. However, I can tell by experience (by being a PUG from Legion to Shadowlands) that a solo DPS player has a really hard time at even finding a group for +11 even if they have cleared all dungeons at +10. Which leads me unto my next counterargument…

@Ðragon-the-maelstrom

But I want to play a MMORPG and progress on my character.

There is no real progression here. I tried to see it as “progression” during BFA and Shadowlands but this system just falls flat on its face. At +11 people are either too elitists or they are simply afraid (hold on to that will need it for the next argument) of messing up their stones so they will prefer waiting for another DPS for like 1 hour than give the chance to a supposedly less qualified DPSer. This leaves many people who really have the skills for harder content in the dust. And if there is no real progression because you are closed out of the system you might as well quit the game.

@Ðragon-the-maelstrom

Really? So if I don’t want to play with you, it’s not my choice? Weird.

You don’t know if you want to play with me. You are just afraid of playing with me. I might want to play with me because I am friendly and fun at parties or whatever. But you are afraid of messing up your stone.

So was that choice of yours made out of personal preference? Or it was just a necessity? And even if you want claim it is not just a necessity because you might not want to admit your perception on this matter is not entirely accurate, can you speak with certainty for others as well?

@Ðragon-the-maelstrom

Don’t think you read properly.

How so? I read it pretty well.

@Ðragon-the-maelstrom

So Blizzard should give hand out free max gear for everyone?

This is a strawman argument. Never said something like that and I doubt this would fix the problem either.

This is a complicated issue, which requires a complicated solution. And whatever they do about it, if they ever do that is, it will not be entirely successful and it will annoy some players for sure.

However, the same can be said for any change that happened in the game. A solution would be deemed as a success if it pleases the majority and annoys only a small minority. There is no perfect solution that will please the 100% of the playerbase. That much is evident by having a quick look at the forums.

So yeah, for you and me the current system can be good because we are in. For all the players who are closed out of it though? They will continue to demand a change, and rightfully so.

The difference between you and me is that despite the fact I am in this closed system for this expansion (god bless the guild I found) I was out of it during Legion - BFA - Shadowlands, and I know it feels worse than poop.

[Lynlia-silvermoon]

@Montaron-frostmane

“i am having fun, so **** the rest” crap over and over.

Maybe you should get in your thick skull that only because YOU don’t like it, doesn’t make it that everyone else doesn’t either. I also don’t like many stuff in WoW, but I know there are people who do like them so I leave them alone in peace.

WoW is not custom made and tailored just for YOU.

[Montaron-frostmane]

@Lynlia-silvermoon

Maybe you should get in your thick skull that only because YOU don’t like it, doesn’t make it that everyone else doesn’t either.

just in this thread there is far more ppl criticizing current design than being happy with it
there is far more people NOT raiding, doing rated pvp or high M+ than those doing it
ultimately all of the above leads to FAR MORE people quitting the game just few months into first tier than those who keep playing.

yet for some reason you spill it is “ME” problem? And i am thick skull here? lmao

[Lynlia-silvermoon]

@Montaron-frostmane

just in this thread there is far more ppl criticizing current design than being happy with it

The negatives will always be louder cause nobody comes to the Blizzard forums to praise the game…they just…play the game.

@Montaron-frostmane

there is far more people NOT raiding, doing rated pvp or high M+ than those doing it

And what does raiding have to do with this or PvP?

@Montaron-frostmane

ultimately all of the above leads to FAR MORE people quitting the game just few months into first tier than those who keep playing.

Yeah yeah. People are quitting only and only because “evil toxec tryhards” are not inviting them to their keys. Well you didnt use the “if we do it my way = 12M people will back overnight” card so 10 points for originality?
I would go on and show you examples of same story about other MMos which gets a huge population boom at the start of any expansion or patch but thats too advanced for you I guess.
I wonder. When people quit FFXIV after they checked current story. I am sure they do it ONLY because of those evil elitists not inviting them to savage raids. Dang those toxec bad people.
/sarcasm over.

[Montaron-frostmane]

@Lynlia-silvermoon

The negatives will always be louder cause nobody comes to the Blizzard forums to praise the game…they just…play the game.

yet here you are. 100 responses later from you, i am still waiting how horribly would non-scored , non-timed M+ mode affect the challenge or prestige of timed M+ players. Everything else you wrote was frankly just a waste of time to read.

[Evokus-ravencrest]

@Montaron-frostmane

considering the untimed M+ would have exactly the same difficulty as timed one, minus the time limit

actually it wouldnt lol.

it realistically on no level is capable to, the More chances u have at finishing, the higher success rate is naturally. without a Deadline u have Limitless tries, therefore Limitless Possibilities.

u could wait for BL before every boss as 1 Example, u could run out zone and Swap builds continously among more, which would all make it easier.

[Montaron-frostmane]

@Evokus-ravencrest

actually it wouldnt lol.

it realistically on no level is capable to, the More chances u have at finishing, the higher success rate is naturally. without a Deadline u have Limitless tries, therefore Limitless Possibilities.

u could wait for BL before every boss as 1 Example, u could run out zone and Swap builds continously among more, which would all make it easier.

hence no score from untimed and no possibility to upgrade the key. Again, whoever enjoys pushing keys and being competitive still can.
This is to give people chance to practice, learn, gear up and gain confidence in M+. Eventually if they wanna progress further, they would have to.
But currently single mistake often leads to run being over and the person either does not even know what happened or feels horrible for ruining the run and chances are won’t try again.

@Evokus-ravencrest

u only climb upwards

you don’t climb at all, you can upgrade key only in timed

[Evokus-ravencrest]

sure, but if the rewards are identical, no ones going to do timed key options Due to the Risk of Failure being removed in yours therefore u only climb upwards and never lose Key levels this means u can actively farm to +20 at a Faster rate.

so u’d actively have to then add ANOTHER catagory of ilevel into the game which will drive the difference between the top and bottom being even larger then it already is.

[Kyru-hydraxian-waterlords]

@Evokus-ravencrest

if the rewards are identical, no ones going to do timed key options

Thought you liked the timed runs. All about epics as always and most importantly keeping them exclusive.

[Timpanogos-emerald-dream]

yeah I hate it

it affects the way a dungeon is designed when it needs to be played against a timer

plus the selection of affixes feel uninspired, especially the first row

[Evokus-ravencrest]

I do liked Timed Runs.

but ur Dumb to take a Needless Risk of Failure for gearing, Ur actively telling me to gear inefficently? u think if i could obtain 423 ilevel gear from Open World i’d raid or do M+?

Ever heard the saying “humans take the path of Least resistance”. no ones going to try harder then they need to im afraid, no matter how much fun it is.

if its Faster its More efficent, Thats all that matters.

also not exclusive in the slightest ANYONE and EVERYONE can get a Key and u can all make groups, Please dont act like theres some sortas Requirement to do M+.

the only person Excluding you. is Exactly you.