M+ gives too good loot

Community General Discussion
62

I completely agree. Some rotation is good.

The current system does not provide much rotation though. Virtually every week the same 2-3 dungeons give the best rewards per unit of difficulty, and the only thing that’s going to change that is if Blizzard manually goes in and changes the encounters, and since every dungeon is infinitely repeatable, you can keep running the same dungeon forever by just constantly finding new groups, which damages group cohesion and causes problems for the competitive side of the game. As such, M+ is at odds with itself - it tries to be a competitive system but does not reward being competitive.

My suggestion would cause some slightly longer-term rotation. In essence, about every month or so, 2 dungeons would fade out of relevance, and 2 would enter relevance. Sometimes quests and extra bosses and hidden hardmodes would pull you back into things you had put behind you, with timewalking certainly being a good candidate for this design.

It’s great that you enjoy M+, but might I suggest that you’re enjoying M+ because of the strength of the dungeons and not because of M+ as a system in and of itself?

Anybody here who actually enjoy how keystones work? Or are you like me - enjoying having hard dungeons, and just thinking of keystones as the way the game happens to deliver that?

63

It’s nice that you can keep increasing the difficulty a couple of steps, but overall I don’t really enjoy it. Just a means to get some gear really.

I’ve always liked more challenging dungeons, anything from specific tactics to relying on crowd control. And I don’t need a timer or different levels added to achieve that really.

But I guess having only 1 Mythic/heroic-difficulty doesn’t fit in the current view of how much progression we “have” to be able to make within one expansion. Just keep increasing ilvls #yolo. By the time this expansion ends we’ll have to scale down again as it did at the release/pre-patch :face_with_raised_eyebrow:.

64

Blizzard have already confirmed there won’t be a squish immediately after BfA.

Yep, we’re going back to having 10 million HP again.

65

I can enjoy both hard content and relaxed content depending on some circumstances.

In WotLK and Cata I farmed way too many LFD heroics, which were practically no effort content for my gear at the time without any rewards to chase.

Right now I’m enjoying M+ for the challenge. However I understand that they are not content I’d enjoy if I didn’t have a solid team to run them with. Moreover, there are still some circumstances which frustrate me, mostly involved around situations that make me feel that I’m not in control of whether content is possible. (for example Tyrannical witch trio can be scale terribly for me because I had too much on-the-move healing removed over the years)

So I can enjoy both ends of the spectrum.

I think a main point of frustration for M+ is how they force everyone into one of the responsibilities of a raid leader; having to filter out who we run them with. Until you have established a circle of reliable candidates, M+ pugging is a terrible experience and not due to the dungeons themselves.
However they are also readily available and approachable (no locks) that people would like to not have to do this filtering all the time. Even now I sometimes have the itch to just pug, “what’s the worst that can happen” and rarely am I left with much sense of fulfilment with randoms. But I have learned to accept that it’s not content to run with everyone as I’d sometimes like.

I think another problem with M+ is that they are mostly a loss of resources (gold) if you don’t execute them perfectly. I think a system similar to Path of Exile incursions where the instance tracks your drops and rewards everything you were allocated inside the final chest would be great. So going out of one would also result in some cloth and cooking reagents, some greens to scrap/disenchant and maybe a world drop BoE once every blue moon.

66

Alright; you could do that with just having different easy and hard content. No need for keystones to do that.

Yeah I’m not suggesting we go back to that.

Yeah definitely. Sometimes it feels like Blizzard had a few too many variable to juggle and fights start becoming kindda annoying or even impossible to do, and that’s definitely very frustrating. Completely agreed.

As a raider leader of 3 years: It doesn’t. Most of this work rests with the tank, who must plot out a route, and even then it is much, much, MUCH more work to be a raid leader than just inviting people and planning the strategies. You gotta remove people who are bad, invite new people, convince everyone that you’re a figure of authority somehow, make sure everyone shows up well prepared, help keep the guild going, resolve disputes, whisper people with advice, help people develop their playstyle if it’s fallen behind, and so much more. M+ leading is peanuts compared to Mythic raid leading.

Yeah, absolutely. Random people are randomly great and randomly terrible, because they’re random. WoW is always better with friends.

I don’t really think this is avoidable.

Not a bad idea at all - especially not if they were to get lockouts like I suggest. It’d be neat if you could kill half the bosses of a M+ with 4 bosses say, and get half the normal chance at an item, then come back later and do the last two, and get half the normal chance at an item again. I like it.

67

Basically the same here. Sure there is still some upgrade in there, but like, only for two or three slots, even if I have only killed two bosses in heroic BoD atm.

Azerith gear will come naturally when I will buy 415 ones from the Titan Residuums.

I should be needing something from almost every boss, and yet, not at all.

Just give me an other week of M+ and I will probably not need anything at all from Heroic BoD anymore.

Same goes for my priest alt. I’m only doing Mythic +2/3, +5 at best on this char and yet, I can’t get any upgrade from Normal BoD.

I would be forced to go in Heroic difficulty at least to get some upgrade for my priest even if I only used her on ridiculously low keys.

68

Keystone scales and changes due to affixes, other content does not. You can set your own limit with this system.

The advantage of M+ is that you can come from work, get into the game and run as challenging run as desired at pretty much any hour without the need of pre-planning and grouping many people.

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69

Yup m+ gets very stale too, because the season affix is nothing more but annoying after 2 weeks and the random affixes are just annoying all the time and mostly not fun

well if blizzard would actually care about their game and thinking that m+ is the future, you could implement a randomizer into dungeons.
Whats that?
Well like many old rpgs that have been played a gazillion times in speed runs, people invented randomizers to mix up the game pathes.

In dungeons that could be:
-shuffle mobs and bosses by rng per dungeons e.g. last boss of freehold is now first boss of motherlode and each time you do a dungeon it shuffles again, so that every dungeon is literally random
-give bosses random abilities of other bosses; shuffle it with each new key. Just give every boss their basic abilities + 1 ability of another boss of any dungeon. Could be fun and maybe hard to balance, but that would actually result in less memorizing and more “reacting to the situation”.

70

You can set your own limit in any system. If it gets too hard, just stop and repeat the content you’ve already done as you wait for better gear upgrades, then try the harder content again, which is now easier as a result of your gear. That’s all there ever was to it. Yes, you’ll be a little behind, but so will millions of others. It’ll be fine.

Yup, and nothing I’ve suggested would change any of that.

73

I don’t get what you propose there. What type of content, what type of instances, what lockout, what release cycle, how many players?

74

5 players dungeons, weekly lockout, about 14 released all at once with the expansion launch, with 2 more coming every couple of months. Further to this, new quests to make some old dungeons relevant will come out too. Bosses just drop items. The lockouts work like in Heroic mode raids (you can join infinite times but only get gear once per week per boss)

Difficulty varies wildly. 3 of them are super easy and doable by virtually anybody. Used also as levelling content. In BfA terms, they’d drop iLvL 300 and become trivial at around 290. Basically the equivalent of today’s normal mode.

After that comes another 3 that are a little harder - today’s heroic mode. In BfA terms, they’d drop iLvL 320 and become trivial at around 310.

After that comes another 3 that are a little harder - today’s mythic mode. In BfA terms, they’d drop iLvL 340 and become trivial at around 335.

After that comes another 2 that are a little harder - today’s M+5 mode. In BfA terms, they’d drop iLvL 355 and become trivial at around 350.

After that comes another 1 that are a little harder - today’s M+10 mode. In BfA terms, they’d drop iLvL 370 and become trivial at around 365.

In addition to this, quests will exist for almost every dungeon that crop up at a rotation. These quests unlock additional rooms and areas in any of the previously mentioned dungeons that makes it significantly harder, making it relevant for 1-4 “tiers” above it, and completing it will provide a commensurate reward. Many of these quests will appear every single week.
Most of them will make the dungeons that drop 320 get additional bosses containing 340 loot, for instance, or put a really hard 380 rewarding boss inside a hidden cave in the dugneon that drops 300 iLvL loot, etc.

The most extreme cases of these will be equivalent to today’s +18’s and +20’s and stuff like that, and will be so hard that almost nobody can do them, but all they really give is a 390 (in BfA S1 numbers) and the ability to peek inside a hidden room, do a bonus boss.

This is quite similar to profession quests in Legion, except there’d be a TON more difficulty. And yes, some of these quests can definitely be profession quests! Imagine stuff like alchemists getting a quest to deal with murlocs, and the goblin who gives you the quest says it’s guaranteed to work by making murlocks grow so big they explode - except of course he’s miscalibrated it so it just makes the murloc huge and monstrous after using it, such that it suddenly threatens the nearby city. Make hundreds of examples of this kind of thing. Be creative!

Keystones go away entirely.

75

Um quick question: what would be the point of having different dungeons than? When the bosses and mobs get randomly generated to a dungeon, you would only need one dungeon. Also certain bosses in certain places (the second boss from shirne in the position of the the last boss in freehold for example, where u would have very little space to kite) would make the bosses so increadibly hard or completly negate the boss (the first boss of tol dagor in the booty ring from freehold, just stand to the side and u cant get blown anywhere). Randomizing between dungeons imo is a terrible idea. Randomizing within the dungeon might work, so patrol routes, mob placement, pathing throughout the dungeon etc. Although this would lead to some dungeons being increadibly hard or easy depending on RNG. Take waycrest manor for example: if one route is a lot easier and faster than another.

76

One day a week of content that quickly becomes obsolete. No thanks.

79

So that would mean rewarding 420 loot in terms of BFA S2 tearms? Plus trivializing dungeon content 5 itm lvls bellow the itm lvl of drops is retarded. +10 become trivial at around the itm lvl they drop not 5 or 10 itm lvls bellow. Plus caping the reward on the lvl of lfr loot for the highest tier dungeon would kill the dungeons.

80

You didn’t read the whole post.

81

Well in BfA S2 terms there would be another 4 dungeons added on top, but on top of that bfA just has too much gear scaling anyway. Dungeons shouldn’t be trivialised this fast. Also the fact that you get limited drops means you’ll be staying the same iLvL for longer, which means it won’t trivialise as fast.

LFR needs to reward items that are reasonable given the investment of the player who obtains it. That’d be around 320 in BfA terms.

82

I get what your saying but it would require basically a complete overhaul of the loot distribution system. mid-expansion this might be a bit difficult. Do you scale down all the exsisting gear by around 30-40 itm lvls? so the only chance this can be implemented is the next time they scale down itm lvls for a new expansion.

83

I read it. A complex convoluted fixed system instead of self regulating and proven M+ system. Good groups can complete much higher content trivializing the lower one even quicker. +10 isn’t a challenge that much while over-tuning to “+20” to make it absurdly hard would just discourage most of the playerbase. This system doesn’t solve anything and just re-adds dungeon limitations from pre-Legion expansions.

84

Yes. Dungeons need a loot overhaul. That’s what this thread is about.

Agreed. There’s no hope for BfA.

The system I propose was in place when the game had 11 million subscribers. It’s a proven system alright. Far more proven than M+ is.

Not every player is supposed to do literally every quest in the game. Some quests are just supposed to be hard and not doable for everyone. That’s OK, as long as there’s plenty of quests for everyone else too.

It solves farming the same 3 dungeons while feeling no progression whatsoever for an entire expansion spanning 2 years.

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85

Isn’t this just all fixed by removing azerite pieces and adding set pieces again?

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