The keystone system is the biggest roadblock in m+ participation. If Blizzard wanted to boost m+ participation the first thing they would do is revise that system completely.
As opposed to what? Who watches m+ as e-sport except during the MDI? Actually Blizzard never tried to build an e-sport around raiding: what Method did was without Blizzard support and it was successful: I wonder what would be even possible with Blizzard’s involvement.
And why requiring not too many players or being able to easily have the players in the same place would even be a requirement for a successful e-sport? There are plenty of sports with a quite large number of players per team and this doesn’t stop them to be popular and/or watchable: with e-sports it’s even easier because you don’t need to be in the same physical venue at all.
While PvP and PvE both exist within the same game they are both worlds on their own, and totally different aspects of the game. We even used to have in the past PvP and PvE servers in the game for a reason. And the gear obtained for both should be separated to.
Guilds and players which regularly do the organized raiding as their main activity in the game.
Why not? They’re easily capable of doing that. In Legion they gave us 4 post-launch dungeons over an 24 month period. That’s an average of a dungeon every 6 months. Sounds far off from 2 every 6 months, but each dungeon is currently being created to operate in dozens of difficulty levels, which makes it very hard to complete the encounter design. If they just did more encounters with a fixed difficulty, this problem would vanish.
Nothing’s ever going to solve farming. It solves grinding though.
But the magic trick is they can’t farm it infinitely. They get one shot per week.
Yes they will, because they can’t do a +10 instantly because a +10 requires very good gear, and even if they can the items in +5 and +0 will still be huge upgrades until they can farm more +10’s, which they can only do once per week, remember. There is no point in skipping the lower difficulties in a system like this, unlike the current one.
Yeah it’s bad to punish people who can’t play every week, which is why the M+ system with its weekly cache improves matters.
What … ?!
Yeah, you can’t do that, because if you can, you can do it to every dungeon and now it’s just a matter of farming forever as quickly as possible until you have the BIS item in every slot in the first 2 weeks, and then you’re just waiting for the next tier because you’re effectively done for the tier, unless—
TITANFORGING. Don’t we all love meaningless RNG that we don’t need to progress anyway? Everyone loves titanforging. >_>
How so?
Create more characters or run the dungeon without rewards, or just… do something else in the game?
Alternatively we can simply change the argument around and say that raids should not have lockouts. Would that be better? I don’t think so, but do you think so?
Try to recruit some new members or make an alliance with another guild and run with them?
But you don’t need to raid in the system I propose. You do need to if you want to gear faster, just as raiders need to do M+ to gear faster. Meh.
Can be. Just make a questline like the Scepter of the Shifting Sands. Make many.
Let’s justify making changes we don’t understand because the clock spins around.
Being within the Top 100 of healer priests doing M+ in EU apparently not good enough for you I guess? (ok, horde priests, but still fairly close for total)
Which is because M+ is still fairly young and sub-optimised and class diversity is very stifled. My score,equally, for mistweaver monks doesn’t even break Top 200. You have less score than me and still supposedly rank better since your class is almost entirely expected to tank there.
M+ is still not an equal opportunity playground for everyone to be expected to do M20. Of course, neither are raids, but not to the same extent and magnitude.
However, this season everyone can reach M15. A vast improvement over the previous one. And M15 is not more rewarding that mythic raids as some would like to argue. Relatively, they aren’t necessarily harder either, overall resulting in a good tuning of reward to effort ratio.
M16 and upwards are completely out of the curve and I’d gladly be fine with more rewards if the curve was allowed to be scaled by most speccs instead of being doomed if you don’t bring or be a havoc DH, a rogue or a frost mage depending on the affixes/dungeon while only 2 healers can stand up to recovering from the damage spikes.
Either way, I’m pretty sure that none of the people who push M20 and 2.9K PvP Rating are doing it for the gear. If that’s was their main concern they’d spam M10s or M15s.
Dungeons being too hard led to the early Cataclysm situation, where dungeons were so challenging to be fun for a minority of players and a source of frustration for the vast majority. Blizzard had to nerf the dungeons hard due to the huge backlash.
Dungeons becoming irrelevant later into the expansion means they need to be replaced with new content or kept alive through other means like the old dailies, where you yawn your way to completion without any challenge whatsoever just as a chore to farm this or that currency/token/whatever.
The whole Idea currently is to re-use already implemented content and to keep it relevant by scaling it: I don’t see Blizzard changing this strategy any time soon.
I also think you are overestimating how expensive is to tune a dungeon compared to the cost of designing a brand new one. To adapt all the dungeons to S2 all they had to do was a 30% buff to the base difficulty and designing a new affix…
No, it didn’t. If it did, then there would’ve been a similar “vanilla situation” and “tBC situation”, but there wasn’t. What led to the Cataclysm situation is that dungeons were hard AND in the LFD system such that people who had no preperation and no patience and no teamwork were expected to do hard content, and that is very frustrating, because it feels like hitting a brick wall.
I’m not asking for that.
Bingo!
This is why we a subscription fee.
Well that’s a darned shame. I’ll try and convince them either way.
I’m not talking about the tuning pass - I’m talking about all the layers of mechanics where one half has to work and be playtested without the other half, and where every mechanic needs to be tested for nasty interaction with every affix.
That takes quite a lot of testing. I don’t think I’m even remotely overestimating it.
There is no problem and you are trying to “solve” something that doesn’t exist.
And what’s fun about being so gated with gear? People were force benched in Legion if they happened to not get their BiS legendaries in early Legion. People were angry and frustrated if they didn’t got their Antorus trinkets in first weeks when the tier had any value to it.
There is. Jaina mythic was killed with lower ilvl gear I have. Voice communication, unlimited time, skilled players and you can just go and do +10 in M0 gear. You can put absurd ilvl inflation to force going though each tier of dungeons but then having tier 2 makes tier 1 utterly trash and having tier 3 makes tier 1 and 2 trash and never return to. In M+ you play every dungeon for the whole expansion duration.
You need one run for weekly. You need multiple runs to exhaust your weekly lockouts.
unless I do it for the fun, for the score, to get better?
Dungeons with low ilvl rewards will not be revisited, will die like raid tiers.
So destroy M+ which was highly rated by players is the improvement to the system? I will not create more characters, I will stop playing and paying for the game. Your system is highly flawed.
Raids have around 9-10 bosses and usually offer best gear. In case of BfA - azerite armor which is not directly available in M+ (currency gated). There were raids on short lockouts in the past…
Even in Legion there was to many guilds and recruitment was a nightmare for any guild. Right now even on popular horde realm it’s pretty impossible to recruit players for progression and top PvE content. And a lot of players we had just stopped playing the game in BfA. And Alliance would be even bigger dead-end.
In short you want to kill the one PvE system that keeps this game afloat in an poor expansion and that made Legion are relative success. In return you offer highly limited system, one day a week worth of content that will die quickly with ilvl inflation and requires pumping multiple instances every few months just to have them irrelevant next patch. There are people that find fun in running M+ and are not interested in playing as you want them to play the game. So keep your gameplay to yourself and don’t force other people to your template.
You cannot compare the current players’ mindset and expectations with Vanilla and TBC. Take TBC difficulty and attunement system: trying to do something like that nowadays would cause a backlash of enormous proportions. Even just the required attunement for Boralus/KR caused players to lament…
LFD is a double edged sword but there is no easy solution: Blizzard tried to improve the situation with requiring Proving Grounds, then just gave up and left the problem of group finding/creation to the players except for trivial content. Players who armed themselves with raiderio and we all know how controversial that has become…
Well… good luck. I’d love for brand new content being added to the game every few months myself, but I just don’t see that happening any time soon.
Well normal and HC raids aren’t that difficult usually, I can’t comment on the current state since I am in the process of gearing up to start raiding.
But in Legion I raided Emerald Nightmare, normal and HC, and it wasn’t really that difficult once people knew what to do and had decent gear. The real challenge was Mythic raiding. And this is what normal and HC is for, gearing up for the real challenge. Also you get transmogs from raids too. So you get practice for Mythic and transmogs.
I think it’s fine that you get good gear from M+, because I for one is trying to get good gear for Arena, and if I can get it without having to commit to raiding, then that is awesome, that means I can catch up to other players. Of course, there are some things in raids I would need to get a good combination.
I haven’t gotten higher than M+ 6 yet, and it’s a challenge progression, where I need to get gear upgrades and I get them incrementally, and I need to polish my tactics, and then I deserve the spot for higher M+, and I will be rewarded for that.
That doesn’t mean I enjoy M+, I think it’s pretty boring and it’s sometimes a living hell finding a tank. But we need a place to get good gear without doing raids. I think that the best gear in the game should come from Mythic raids only of course.
If you fail to reach the timer in M+, you will get loot from lower keys relative to by how much you fail it. Though personally I think it should only limit that loot to -1 the current level. Alternatively, your chances to get loot could be decreased.
If you do manage to reach the timer, you are awarded loot accordingly as per the current system.
I feel like this could actually resolve several complaints around M+ in this thread. It will reward good teams for making the timer, while simultaneously not diminishing the effort put in by those who participate heroic/mythic raiding. In raiding, if you do not kill the boss, you get no loot. Beating a timer in M+ should be half-equivalent to killing the boss properly.
Sorry Danellos but have to say how I disagree with you here on several things in this thread :
In one of your post you said how heroic raiding is easy, and on that I have to say how that is entirely subjective thing and how it might be for the people which do regularly mythic raiding and for cutting edge players, but current heroic raid is hard for a lot of current heroic guilds, not many yet have killed Jaina on heroic.
Second I will disagree with anyone who say how current mythic dungeons give to much loot or to high one, because they aren’t when everything is so much RNG based and they certainly are giving the loot which is adequate to the difficulty the players are doing + they offer to the raiders and not just players which do dungeons additional way of obtaining gear so a lot of current raiders don’t have anything against the current mythic + system and how gearing in it atm works.
Besides if your current proposal would be accepted than that would result with less players participating in the mythic dungeons, because the players which would put the effort to finish the dungeons ( beat all the bosses and everything inside them ) but not in the time would not just be punished in the end of them for not making timer with less loot but also with decreased loot. Which would lead to the thing that most players which aren’t playing in premade teams or in high end guilds would lose motivation to push that content and the level of toxicity between the players for not making the timers in the mythic + would even increase.
Current system is ok because those which make it on time are awarded with more loot and an increased key, and those who just finish the dungeons get something to, but less than them.
If you read the way I worded that post, you’ll notice that I am aware that it is subjective. I actually specifically used terms like “I never found it difficult”. Inherently, this implies a subjective point of view.
I don’t think we really disagreed here actually. I am more trying to understand if there is a compromise if that concern were legitimate, hence “what if”. Sometimes, entertaining a thought you don’t agree with can stem some useful discussion.
The biggest issue with my idea is that it could encourage leaving if the group misses the timer. This would create situations where nobody gets loot no matter what.
Would that be better? I don’t think so, but do you think so?