Thought so 
1 Like
When I wrote can you manage 5 might of the forges I didn’t expect to be proven wrong by data yet again - so I’ll move the goalposts and pretend it was an abstract question because I refuse to accept facts that don’t support my feelings.
Is that what you meant^^?
No, which class(es) that are meta is based on their performance and contribution to the group/raid. Community perception dictates that, unless your class/spec is meta, your application for a key/raid inv is most/more likely declined by that base fact.
You complained about not getting invites. I answered that this is the likely reality for any class that isn’t meta, simply due to community perception of how those who aren’t, they’re inferior, and should be avoided if possible. Essentially, the perception often goes towards the idea that, unless a class/spec is meta, bringing them means that the risk of depleting a key is that much higher.
If you don’t want to have to deal with the downsides of PuGs, and community perception of “less optimal” classes, find some way to bypass those downsides. The easiest way is to form your own groups, or find a stable team of 4 other players to do keys with.
Throwing your arms up in the air and shouting “I(my class) might not be meta, but I’m good enough…” means literally nothing to most within the PuG world. Fair or not, that’s how it is. Asking the devs to continue to make improvements to our defensives, or other aspects, to the point where PuGs start inviting us, that will basically require the devs to make the hunter class part of the meta, or the above status quo won’t change.
Perhaps, perhaps not. That’s the issue with random posts of individual player experiences. They typically aren’t representative of a large enough portion of the entire community to warrant deeper consideration. Having said that, “large enough” isn’t determined by us as the players. If the devs see that a significant number of players bring up issues/posts are made on said issues, then they may consider making changes.
More likely, though, the devs have their own tools to figure out which classes/specs are lacking in certain areas, and they usually make changes based on evaluations of those tools/results. They have mentioned how they sometimes intentionally change up the meta, for the sake of community perception. This, however, isn’t something worth opting for to be done, simply due to how unlikely it is for it to happen in a way which benefit us the most.
Some examples are the addition of Fortitude of the Bear for tenacity pets, which replaces Survival of the Fittest, which in itself has been made a part of the class(class-wide option through the class talent tree). They also gave us an additional choice node to allow for optional improvements to SotF, decent ones at that. Natural Mending had it’s Focus spending requirements lowered for all specs, at 2/2 ranks that is = a somewhat lowered CD on Exhilaration, based on how you play ofc. The addition of Hunter’s Avoidance, for a base 6% reduction to incoming AoE damage. They increased our base health by a decent amount, and yes, made a small nerf to Rejuvenating Wind. Though, that base health increase is arguably superior to what they took away from RW.
There are some others as well, though, they’re more niche in terms of how they apply to our gameplay in a group-based setting.
Are these changes massive relative to what for example Paladins have? No, but they’ve certainly made an impact towards our general survivability.
Unless the gap is actually very large, it’s fairly irrelevant when it comes to community perception. Generally, in the PuG world…“Is the class of applicant X meta? No? Decline…”, that’s usually the depth of how their logic works.
First off, neither of those two example abilities are guaranteed to kill you up to a certain point, and you have a lot of tools to mitigate the damage they deal, or avoid it entirely.
For Talondra in Uldaman:
I assume with “terrigen scale debuff”, you’re talking about the bleed effect; Earthern Shards.
The bleed should never kill you unless you’re still very low on health after a stomp, and you get the bleed on you just as the stomp has gone out. If you’re topped off before the stomp, you should have more than enough time to either heal yourself up, or the healer should be able to keep you alive through the damage of the bleed itself. If you’re low on health when the stomp is about to hit, you can use FotB preemptively to top yourself off, and increase your max health at the same time, or use Exhil. You should ideally also rotate in the use of SotF, either with the increased DR talent, or the CDR+longer duration talent, whichever & whenever you deem necessary.
AotT should be used preemptively, rotated in with the other defensives ofc. If you’re low on health when the stomp is about to hit, especially if you have the bleed on you just before the stomp. Using AotT preemptively, just before the stomp hits also ensures that any follow up application of the bleed from the boss after the stomp will be avoided entirely Although, if you had the bleed just before the stomp, IIRC, it’s extremely unlikely that you’ll get it again immediately following the stomp(As I recall, the mechanic has some form of memory-system with how it picks a target, where it’s very unlikely to get the debuff several times in a row). Again, could be wrong on that last bit though.
Any abilities or similar effects which can reduce the effect of, or remove bleeds are ofc extremely useful for this fight. Such as the Dwarf and Dark Iron Dwarf racials(Stoneform & Fireblood).
TL;DR, unless you have a bleed which is followed by a stomp, or get the bleed directly after a stomp, you should never be in danger of dying as a result of the bleed damage.
This is all based on proper play of the group towards making sure the boss gets stunned during casts of Titanic Empowerement, in order to not have to deal with the damage bonus the boss gains from it. If she gets a 50% damage buff for 20 sec, especially on Tyrannical week, you’re not meant to survive the bleed if you get it at that point, nor the stomps. Also worth noting is the soft enrage on this boss, with Unrelenting, the stacking damage buff for the boss. You will only be able to fight her up to a certain point, where your group gets overwhelmed by the incoming damage.
For Naraxas in NL:
The posion pools are avoidable, and come with a decent warning before landing.
The Toxic Retch damage debuff, you should just rotate using either SotF, FotB, and Exhilaration every time it’s going out. Exactly how/when you use each one of those, it depends on what they do ofc, how they help you. And Aspect of the Turtle should be used preemptively just before a Toxic Retch cast goes through. Unless they’ve changed how it’s applied, if you have AotT up when it goes out, you should be able to avoid it entirely that time. And even if it doesn’t anymore, you can still pop AotT just before the cast goes through as the shield lasts longer than the debuff from Toxic Retch.
I’m assuming you move out of the puddles on the floor ASAP(?). If you keep standing in one, even for a few seconds, while also having the Retch poison debuff on you, no amount of personal healing or defensives, or help from the healer, will save you in that case. If you watch out for when the cast goes through, you can already be moving as the puddle hits the floor beneath you, and you’ll take max 1 tick from it before you’re out of it.
See above.
Same as your previous examples. Assuming you’re at full health when, for example, Might of the Forge is cast, rotating your personal defensives + at critical times, group/raid CDs from the healer, and you should be fine.
BL isn’t something that you have to deal with every other pack, and with that, nor is the process of pet swaps mid-run. You can usually get a feel for the pacing of the group you’re in, fairly quickly. As long as your group has decided at what points to use BL, you can manage it fairly easily.
Also, the time it takes you to swap pets is around 5-6 sec total. Doing that a few times total per run, can you honestly ever say that the time it took to do this would be what caused you to fail the timer? Even if your group agrees on a few brief 5-10 sec pauses as you do it?
Btw, why couldn’t you do it during combat, if necessary?
None taken. You said that “it may be enough for someone”. If in fact our defensives are enough to manage a certain level of difficulty, provided proper play, then this proves that our defensives are indeed enough, again, provided that the individual takes full advantage of how to utilize them.
If you don’t take full advantage of how to use/apply them, or if you’re in a group where your fellow teammates make that hard(er) to accomplish, again, that’s not on the class or our defensives.
To quote what Jerby said:
“This is not a defensive issue”
In the example Jerby brought up, soaking the mushrooms is a part of you survive that fight. AotT is leagues better than Ice Block is for mages when it comes to that scenario. Again, it depends on how you apply the term “defensives”.
Ofc, for that specific fight, you should rely mostly on the use of Upheaval and Shockwave to clear mushrooms/spores, but having classes with mobile immunities, such as Hunters or Rogues, can help a LOT towards making up for small mistakes with the default mechanics.
Again, that’s anecdotal, not objectively applicable as facts of our state as hunters.
Agreed, though, I fail to see your point here. If anything, this highlights even further how something that’s being said on a forum, even if there are more than 1 person saying it, that doesn’t automatically make what’s being said an objective truth, or fact.
Again, this is not on the class side. If you die to mechanics, for example due to being in an uncoordinated PuG group, and/or with individuals who aren’t necessarily playing optimally, this is not a defensive issue.
Do you honestly expect to manage +22s or +23s(or higher) without people playing properly? If your argument was based on a scenario where this happens regularly even in low level keys, I’d agree. This, however, isn’t the case here. M+ is specifically designed with the purpose of providing a challenge for 5-man content. If you or your team isn’t playing properly, expect to not be able to reach as high, or survive what should be survivable, what should be theoretically possible, based on what we have.
3 Likes
What did Jerby prove with those links?
I just see that the bosses have been killed.
What elements do I have available to understand if Hunter’s defenses CDS are actually good, decent or fair?
I can simply deduce that the synergy between the various members of the group and, especially, that the excellent role played by healer, has created the conditions for being able to kill that particular boss.
And I can say that what could be a weak point of a class is compensated by the skill of the members of the group itself.
But let’s talk a little about you.
Besides not being able to argue anything because you don’t know the Hunter, you don’t have the basics of this class and you don’t have experience with high keys, can you explain to me what would be your involvement in all this?
I understand that yours is a vain attempt to find visibility, a form of attention that you haven’t managed to get in life, but do you understand that, by doing so, you have the opposite effect, exposing yourself to ridicule assuming a stupid and childish attitude?
Here are some comments from you:
I avoid answering even if I have a feeling that it is a possible Troll in action.
You see many of them around but it could be an isolated case but not:
Oppure…
When asked to explain the reason for your statement remain silent and wrapped in your blissful ignorance.
And although you are told to avoid useless and stupid comments you continue further:
Since I don’t read a reasoning, an idea or anything else that makes me understand that you want to contribute and actively participate in this thread, isn’t it the case to go and troll elsewhere?
Did I already write that it’s a pity that there is no moderation in this forum and people like you who flame are instantly banned?
Come on, be quiet, learn to stay in your place because you are absolutely unable to reply or have a comparison.
P.S.
Read Britz’s posts.
He sure knows how to argue and is very technically prepared.
And when he explains that you’re wrong, he does it with mindfullness and preparation, not with cynicism or toxic attitudes
I just wanted to pick up on this, based on the comments of a particular healer I play with a lot. (They speak from the point of view of other hunters rather than mine because I wasn’t really playing my hunter when we had the conversation.)
Basically they said something along the lines of, “I generally don’t like doing M+ with hunters because they’re hard to heal, except for A and B (2 guildies) who are not.” A gets sac a lot from his prot pala girlfriend - they always play together - but B doesn’t get any special treatment. And yet my healer friend says B isn’t difficult to heal, so it must be a case of using CDs well.
Healer perception of hunters as bad is definitely a thing, though.
Not just Healers, everyone.
I’ve felt that since I re-started in December 2021, almost everyone is at least “wary” of having a Hunter (of any spec) in a PUG, and I’ve been rejected with “I don’t like Hunters” about a hundred of times.
It’s a mix of expectations from things that Hunters could do, but cannot anymore, the perception of the class needing to be babysat (not really true), and some frankly horrible players trolling and breaking everything while knowing nothing that were attracted to the class because it’s supposedly “3 buttons and nothing more” (that’s far from the truth, too) that gave the whole class this kind of weird reputation, with no real basis in facts.
Let’s be honest, I’m at best average when I’m on top form, I will always recognize my mistakes and try to get better, but even I must admit that when a Hunter is played horrendously bad, it kills teams, deplete keys, and everyone is miserable.
A good player behind the keyboard on the other hand (and I’m not there yet, too many things to learn) can do really marvelous things.
At the end of SL, when I had run both Tazavesh instances several hundreds of times, I was able to solo the Post(al) Master in +18 keystones, I knew where, when, how, and what to do or not, and I often was the last man standing rezzing the healer with a gnomish army knife …
But here in DF, there are too many things I don’t know, whole dungeons and mechanics that are brand new to me, so I’d say that my overal level dropped this season (not helped by some players telling me to “watch youtube” instead of just helping me understand, after I told everyone that I was still learning some instances).
How do you know the reason you were rejected? When I’m declined for keys, there isn’t a reason, just a decline notification.
I’ve had this discussion before Doose with Jerby. I brought up the worrying state of hunters and then just got told to “PeRfOrM bEtTeR”, etc, etc. Point is, I don’t want unsolicited advice, I will seek that out (and have in the past). I was trying to discuss the relatively poor state of hunters but people here would rather criticise my imperfect logs and try and invalidate my opinion. The issue still stands.
1 Like
You literally asked for advice in that thread lmfao, and got upset when I gave it to you.
Unsurprisingly people get upset when questioned with logs/statistics/data that go against their personal feelings.
I clearly didn’t, I was discussing how the class had been neglected…but OK, you remember it how you want to remember it.
I didn’t ask you to do that either but you took it upon myself. I mean, oh, I don’t get good parses first time, so damn what? No, as I have pointed out, you basically tried to invalidate my opinion because my logs weren’t as great as yours, oh brilliant one. Imagine using their performance in a game to outdo someone else.
Still doesn’t get around the point I was making - hunters are in a crap position. But what if we had a 100% parsing…destro warlock vs. your MM hunter…who would win? If you played your spec absolutely perfectly? Him, because we’re not playing on a level playing field.
Not sure I have ever used my own logs as an argument, I deliberately don’t because it’s a cheap arguing tactic. That doesn’t mean it’s not silly to look at people who are complaining about damage though - when it’s clear they can do far more damage just with better play. Damage wise MM is in a fine position right now.
Well looking at statistics it would be pretty even, and that’s with warlock being over-represented with PIs and such.
MM is one of the top single target specs right now, BM is pretty mediocre in everything, but theres nothing wrong with being average.
You criticised my logs, so you must’ve gone and looked those up. But no, dissect me on logs when I’ve killed the boss, what, once?
Yeah, MM is good for ST, quite lousy for AoE. Other issue with the tree is that you have to sacrifice all of that when you want to have AoE…no real hybrid builds because they are complete opposite side of the trees. And BM is lousy at ST, better at AoE.
Oh and I tend to do more M+ anyway, where my score is higher than yours. So, yeah, horses for courses.
You can’t flame somebody for bringing up performance and then try to flame m+ score LMAO. I mean you can, makes you look quite hypocritical though. Congrats for having higher score than somebody who just does weekly keys, well done
Just saying, we can all do that crap. And yeah, don’t do mythic raiding because I’ve only ever had sewer guilds so, yeah, back at ya.
The difference being if you don’t play keys, it’s kind of impossible to get score. Whereas playing heroic raid bosses is still your gameplay, hitting a ST boss for 4 mins doesn’t change whether it’s mythic or heroic. But you know that.
Couldn’t give a crap about your justifications of your behaviour. You still went to my logs to try and discredit me, it’s a low tactic. Lower than a snake’s belly.
But I received an answer according to which this is a problem of the person and not of the class.
If the perception of the community is negative towards a certain class, and in this case of the Hunter as an object of discussion, how can I be invited to Pug if I am continually declined in the 22+?
I want to say that this perception towards Hunter didn’t come out of nowhere or is the result of mass hysteria but is based on a whole series of factors that push a large number of people to think that way.
Feeling yes but can we define it abstract?
Easy to say but hard to do.
I’m on an Italian server and I can tell you that I’ve tried more than once to create a team to push high keys, both in the first season of Df and in the second.
Unfortunately I have not found anything except some sporadic occasions with an occasional group but nothing stable.
Probably if I were in another server the chances would increase.
I have found numerous complaints about the state of the Hunter, especially in the American forum.
It is not a negligible number but quite significant, yet the Devs team does nothing, does not renew but makes the other classes more competitive.
Request :
I’ve heard of an upcoming rework of the Rogue.
Was it really necessary?
It doesn’t seem to me that, for example, Subtely performed badly.
Exil and Fortitude they help very little, especially when the damage received becomes significantly high in the high keys.
The shield has an insane cooldown of 2.4 min.
There is no Leech.
Things can definitely change with an excellent premade and an out of the ordinary healer.
It is no coincidence that the Hunters manage to make 25 and 26+ as keys.
But with a mid-level healer do you really think the hunter has the same chance to defend itself as well as a paladin or other class that has better defensive CDs?
Exactly what happened to me several times.
Only once did I manage to survive because I used up all my defense cds (except the turtle).
The problem is that if I have used the shield in an earlier phase of the fight, I have no chance of surviving.
Yes, I move immediately after leaving the pool.
Sometimes, as soon as I have the green circle (poison pool) I start moving even before leaving the pool.
Or I use disengage immediately.
At some point I run out of defensive CDs and if I’m not dispelled in time I die.
In this boss, for example, I would feel the need to have a shorter recovery time than the shield.
Considering that In Pug is not the same thing as talking to a group in DS, I’m forced to do it in combat.
Often the trash is so close to the boss that I have to switch pets as soon as the boss is engaged because the tank doesn’t count down.
I wrote to you above regarding this matter.
I am of the opinion that in a context in which one’s personal defenses are used adequately, even if they are lower than those of another class, they can be adequate with a healer who heals above average and not with an average healer .
At the same time, a class with better defensive CDs may do better with mid-level healer
Why not since the damage received between a 15+ and a 22+ is definitely exponential?
It’s not that defensive CDs change in a 22+ versus a 15+ but they’re still the same.
.
What does your server have to do with it? You can create a team of people from any server and either faction.
Let it go…
It’s useless with this guy.
As soon as you write something that he thinks is not correct, he attacks you personally with the intention of offending and mocking you and your way of playing.
This should be a forum where people exchange ideas, right or wrong, and not a forum of derision
Unfortunately I don’t speak English as well as I used to.