M+ over 20 = "No Hunters"?

Classes Hunter
63

All good sir.

Even then though, you are not going from 220-60k because of frenzy stacks on your pet. The frenzy stacks on your pet literally fully account for something like 6-7% of your damage if that.

Frenzy stacks do not effect kill command, they do not effect bite/claw, they only effect melee auto swings, which makes up a fairly low % of your overall. On single target it accounts for even less - which is why the difference between managing frenzy stacks perfectly, and pressing the button essentially randomly was something less than 1%. It might feel impactful but it’s not even a fifth as strong as people believe it is.

64

I honestly thought Bite/Claw/Stomp were the auto-swings, but re-reading that right now, it’s indeed a “base attack”, but it costs Focus with a 3s CD …

And I see nothing else classed as an “autoswing”, there is a command to make the Familiars attack, and it says it will use it’s “base attack” to do that ? But the logs don’t lie, there are indeed separate lines for “Bite” and “Melee”.

Even if it’s only the attack speed of autoswings that is affected, the other effect of +9% Critical has a significant impact, according to my Details! and WLC graphs and reports, because it definitively affects the Critical Hits of my Kill Command, my main damage dealer (logs show 45.5% of Crits for Kill Command, while I have a Critical Strike Secondary Stat of 35%).

The last succesful run I did, VP +11, had the “Bite” of my main Familiar at 16.79% of it’s total damage, melee at 18.36% and Kill Command at the top with 33.55%, while the “melee only” of my second Familiar did 5.01% of my total damage over the whole instance.

If I add all the % of the damage done by my familiars, they represent 79.87% of my total damage …

I’m even more confused now !

65

Where abouts is the confusion?

There are auto attacks - which is increased by 90% pet attack speed.
There are basic attacks - smack/claw/bite - that is not.

Both of these count towards beast cleave, but your second pet from animal companion does not cast basic attacks, only autos. This is why the main pet beast cleave does far more than the second pet.

Again, this means the overall damage increase from pet frenzy stacks is absolutely tiny compared to what most think. You could remove it completely and people would barely notice. Thrill stacks add another 5-6% damage in total, showing that even when you count both of these, it is not some insane ‘ramp’, and when you drop stacks it really is not a huge deal damage wise.

66

Thank you for having patience with that copium Andy, I agree with everything you wrote.

We must accept the dire reality hunters live in right now.

1 Like
67

Lorceyst is either a troll or completely clueless.

68

I think this loro guy is just super new, but he is typing too much, I hope he doesnt torture pugs with so much typing.

69

Look, I do not get invited into 22 if even if I did some 23 dungeons, I do not get invited mostly because I play warrior.

From every aspect a person who times even a single dungeon on 23 has enough skill to do all 22s, that is at least how I look at it because 23 is much harder than 22.

However, people do not bring just skill, they bring classes that they think will help their composition. While bringing hunter and especially warrior has its benefits, there are drawback that many people do not like.

Hunters are squishy and have a hard time surviving some AOE heavy fights, especially if they do not use their CDs as they should, good hunter may not have big problems but mostly people are meeting the opposite, yet they can easily avoid and bait most mechanics while not losing dps, trait not many casters have. On the other hand warrior may be most survivable class, but it lacks general party utility.

Mostly it seems that PUGs value “flashy” party utility compared to other more general benefits class can bring.

1 Like
70

Honestly, I’m not a troll, and I’m less clueless now.

At least, I’m willing to admit I’m wrong, learn, and correct my mistakes.

No need for ad hominem, they don’t help me nor everyone else.

71

I started playing in december 2021, so “super new” by most players standards I guess.

And when I’m ingame, I say nothing, or if I must, I use three letters max.

Even on VOIP, I’m mostly silent.

But please, instead of bashing my head in, could you actually give advice on how I can get better ?

I’m verbose on the forums when I’m not in the game, that’s all.

That’s the point of those forums, no ?

And it’s the PUGhell population that tortures me, I spent several days reading guides and watching videos to be less clueless, but I feel like I’m the only one actually caring about mechanics and I’m often the last standing, as a BM hunter a bit less sturdy than a wet paper bag.

2 Likes
72

Don’t get discouraged.

The forums these days have become such a complaints department that those offering or actually wanting to enjoy the game are most likely considered to be trolls or apparent liars who play another game.

I feel even more sorry for posters who are actually coming out the woodwork to make advice or dare to share positive experiences. Because they’re more likely to be shot down for daring to shine a light.

Like I say: If you’re always going to focus on the weaknesses, you’ll never come to understand the strengths.

73

The warrior also has this problem with 22 keys.
I’m not saying the hunter is the only class that isn’t taken in pug but certanly there are a few others that aren’t as well.
But I also had the same problem of being invited to 22+ in the first season of Df even though I had a Rio that could allow me.
I can safely sum up and say that the Hunter has been issued in this way since the beginning of the expansion (about 8 months) and it is not a competitive class that is not chosen in high keys.
The question of the Meta classes has really got tired because this gap with the mediocre classes has been going on for some time, which are not taken into consideration.
In other words, the game system, as it is structured, allows you to go up Rio only if you have an efficient Premade or a Meta class that has no problems being invited to the higher keys.
As I wrote on other occasions, all classes should be balanced and there shouldn’t be a gap between Meta classes (S) and mediocre classes (C-D) and knowing how to play should have greater weight.
I don’t understand the sense of having an advantage, even by a lot, of different classes compared to others.
It’s simply my thought and someone could also tell me that if it doesn’t suit me, I can safely leave the game and not pay anymore…

Real.
The Hunter also doesn’t provide any buffs to the party and I can guarantee you that when they write “BL”, party leaders prefer to wait a long time for a Shammy Enh rather than wait for a Hunter.

74

Wow, it’s almost as if this IS the goal but WoW is a fairly complex games that makes balancing tons of different systems quite complicated. I’m sure if blizzard had a ‘make everything perfectly balanced’ button they would press it, but they don’t :slight_smile:

Instead, specs get nudged in the right direction, BM goes up, shadow priest comes down.

How awful of people to suggest finding a group to play with in a multiplayer game.

75

But do you work for them?
Because I have this weird feeling :smiley:
Complicated or not the system, when you developer have strengthened certain classes too much, such as not to make them balanced with the others, why not nerf them by avoiding generating the Meta class label?
Or conversely, if you see that the usual classes, in this case the Hunter, suffer from the same problems that it has been carrying around for a long time, why don’t you rework it and spend some time like you did with the Shadow Priest and Druid balances,Ret Pally that have been reworked enough?

When was the last time the Hunter BM really made a difference?
Ah, just 5 years ago in BFA.
Since then there has been a gradual decline and little interest in this class

76

No, anybody with more than 2 brain cells can understand the intention.

You mean like…the incoming nerfs to shadow priest and enhance?. And the buffs to weaker specs like feral/ww/mm/bdk etc? Crazy I know.

Because it doesn’t need a rework. If it did more damage it would be played in high keys, survival s3/s4 shows us this.

Maybe a good idea not to pigeonhole yourself to one singular spec and play the whole class then.

77

Yes Yes sure…
Very convenient as an answer.
So all those who think differently from you, especially on defensive CDs, don’t have neurons in their heads?

For the Shadow Priest we still have to see what nerf on Aoe damage it is and how much it will affect that damage.
In return, however, they will enhance the damage in St.
If I think that at the moment Its St damage is comparable to that of the Hunter then…

Another proof that in 8 months they haven’t made a tube for the Hunter Bm especially after I read that they will buffer the MM.

It does!
If it did more damage and could provide some useful buffs to the party and renewed defensive CDs,it would be more taken into consideration in the high keys rather than being avoided like the plague.
For the record, this it’s been happening for a long time and the situation doesn’t change because the Meta classes are those who are ALWAYS seen in groups in the 22+ and which are most in demand.

I could answer you that another idea could be to reroll another class.
But what’s the point if I like playing the Hunter Bm (also MM but not SV) on which the developers haven’t paid the right attention and this situation has been going on for a long time?

78

I’ll just add my own, personnal, anecdotal grain of salt to this : I tried Survival and Marksmanship specs, and I just don’t feel good playing them.

I absolutely abhor the playstyle of Survival, and while I can, mostly, play the Sniper, I don’t enjoy it.

I’ve chosen to pigeonhole myself as a Beast Master because I enjoy that playstyle.

Back to balance issues, I cannot understand why I should stop playing a class/spec that I enjoy if I want to participate in content that is supposed to be available to everyone.

But yes, having coded some very simple text-based dungeons and MUDs myself decades ago, even those very simple things were horribly hard to balance and debug, so I can completely understand WoW being in a constant state of “work in progress”.

Still, when I started in Dec 2021, I was warned of Familiars “pathing issues”, “strange despawns”, “proximity aggro” that had existed for several years already, and half a decade after those issues were documented, nothing has been done on that front.

I still enjoy seeking and capturing rare, named, Exotic Familiars, I still generaly enjoy myself in the game, but I’m getting frustrated of not being able to get better by not being accepted anywhere, or blamed for things I have no control over.

On the topic of Personnal Defensives, seriously, they are just plain horrible, even more so compared to everything else :

Survival of the fittest lasts for 6 seconds, reduces incoming damage by 40% if you spent two Talent points on it, with a cooldown of three minutes, and you need to spend 2 Talents points du reduce the CD by 20%.

Turtle Shell lasts for 8 seconds, reduces incoming damage by 30%, but you cannot attack during it’s duration (unless you use a cancelaura macro), with the same 3 minutes cooldown, with the same 2 Talents points to reduce the CD by 20%.

The problem with that CD Reduction Talent is that it is in % … 20% of 3 minutes is “only” 36 seconds.

Enthusiam heals the character for 30% of his max HP, and the Familiars to full HP, with a cooldown of 2 minutes, and if you want to reduce the CD you need to spend 2 Talents points to reduce it by ONE second for 12 points of Focus spent.

If you want to get more healing from it, it’s another 2 Talent points for a 8% boost to your max HP, and 16% more healing, but over 8 seconds.

No immunities, no dispels, the speed boost of the SL Nightfae went poof, boosting Dodge is mostly useless because it’s better to just not be there if you don’t get lucky with loots with that Tertiary Stat (seriously, the most I ever had, with items, Talents and enchants was 11% … when I take a 500K blast because I’m at the wrong place on my 380K HPs, those 11% are far from enough). I did get more iLVL, a belt “enhancement” and a boots enchant to raise my total HPs since that episode, but I’m still sent directly to the cemetery if I’m caught in an AoE, even with both Personnal Defensive on.

The Tenacity Familiars boost your total HP by 5%, nice but not nearly enough, the Fortitude of the Bear you get as an active ability instead of BL boosts your max HP by 20% and heals you for that amount, with a 2 minutes cooldown.

The Spirit Mend of Spirit Beasts Exotic Tenacity has the following formula : [0 + ((Ranged attack power * 0.6) * 1)] plus an additional [0 + ((Ranged attack power * 0.6) * .66) * (5)] over 10 sec.

Again, not nearly enough, at least it’s only a 30 seconds CD, but it’s not really easy to use unless you make specific macros for it (and I’m not good at that). I tried to heal one of those Afflicted mobs with it, and I barely gave it 30% of it’s health over the 10 seconds duration, while it’s debuff has the same cast duration, in a lowly +11 keystone.

I fully accept that I’m a “newbie” with lots of things to learn, but even my noobish eyes can see that at least on the Personnal Defensives point, something MUST be done, they are completely outdated for the current content of the game.

Side note and personnal anecdote : I actually get more healing from the Leech of my Ferocity Familiars than I get from the Fortitude of the Bear and Spirit Mend of my Spirit Beast Tenacity Familiars combined. Of course, the very few items I actually looted or got in the Great Vault with a Tertiary Stat had either Leech or Speed on them.

1 Like
79

There you go again, writing a whole book instead of a reply.

Learn to write less, nobody is gonna read this.

80

Survival offered no buffs and had weaker defensives than now, and got into keys.

Thank god we have class discords to tell us exactly this.

Rough numbers pulled from logs/sims:

  • 0.5% loss in single target
  • 4-6% loss in sustained AoE
  • 2-4% overall loss in keys
81

Reading comprehension is a vital skill, and this is a forum with a 5000 characters limit.

If you cannot read 6 paragraph, I pity you.

And since it’s the second time you’ve attacked me for using this media like it’s meant to be used, I’m fed up with you.

Nothing constructive, just personnal attacks.

82

How do you support this?
How do you know if the number of Hunter Sv that is accepted in Pug is greater than the Bm?
Of course I’m talking about keys 22-23 in Pug and not Premade.

Very little as a percentage.
Do you call it as nerf since they take flight in Aoe packs?
The general damage will be affected very little.
Same 10% nerf as the KC when they sawed off our legs?
This was because it was difficult to balance the classes…
But even a donkey would understand that several classes that are far in terms of dps from the Meta classes need to be boosted.
And it’s not a matter of loving or hating the Hunter…it’s simply the deep disinterest on the part of the developers.