M+ Requirements

Community General Discussion
81

Holy can cheese really hard with its cooldowns.

I don’t like it, it’s somewhat of an overinflation in their value. Your general output is really bad, which results in people not being covered enough, so then you hog all of the healing that you didn’t cover with your cooldowns.

It’s a self fulfilling padding. But its detrimental and dangerous to consistency.

I mean, if you really want to heal harder than them, just press your Revival when they Divine Hymn. They will boost its healing by 10% and you will deny them almost all of its healing. But is it worth it?

But I don’t want everyone to be nerfed in succession. High key M+ is a very satisfying content and I want healers to have roughly the same ceiling and not a difference of 4-5 levels before they start feeling “well, time to reroll”.

1-2 M+ levels ceiling difference would be much more satisfying for everyone.

And since the main reason of that ceiling difference is UTILITY, this can be solved in many ways without influencing raiding.

82

Well i cant waste 2 raid cooldowns just to boost my ego, that probably leads to a wipe? In a demanding content of course not raiding as 415’s in hc xD.

Yes thats true,but increasing priest utility atm you will result another mess in pvp again. Right now is a NO PRIEST pvp season as last season was a NO DRUID pvp season, healerwise as people report in the forums.

IT WILL change, i can bet you on this. But dont forget that majority of expcs priest/pala was/is and always be the dominant healers just because blizzard wants them like this. There will be seasons ofcourse that either intentionally nerf them to ground or they accidentally do so.

We have time man, its all good

83

Remove Dark Archangel and everything’s good with giving us utility across both PvP and PvE.

Then we might actually play and be balanced in PvP like everyone else instead of being only viable within cheese combos of rogue/mage killing someone instantly with Dark Archangel.

84

I think this is going a bit too far between you two.
Fighting over who is best in raiding and m+ as a healer.

But I just want to remind you (reading this comment of yours)of how old disc priest was required for every raid group for atleast a couple expansions i know of including WoD for example. Your utility was having shields, which is the biggest utility a healer could bring to a progression raid back then. In WoD disc was simply required to progress on Butcher and first boss in brf as an example, but every tier every raid had 1 disc in it back then.
Then we could look at for example mythic KJ where disc again was required for their retarded burst aoe healing. Even though they couldnt heal during intermission, the rest of their healing made up for it tenfold.
Now again we are in BFA, and ppl are progressing on the current hardest content with 3 disc priests each, sometimes 2. Why? Because again, cabal wants you to have those extra absorbs on ppl who are on high stacks and have pretty much no HP.
Back in Uldir they said they wont be good on Vectis, because there is no target to hit in intermission…but they still ended up being super strong for…burst healing important phases.
So i definietly see a pattern of disc having the utility pretty much every expansion i ever heard of.
MoP? I heard disc was a god. I also seen them pushing cms back then.
Vanilla? Only viable healer was priest.
(I started end of MoP and these are all just things I have seen and heard afterwards)

Now disc had a patch, where they were way way ahead of any other healer in raids. They got a nerf.
Healer balance atm is pretty close. Maybe if we ignore glimmerdins anyway.
Druid is simply suited for small group healing more, but a nerf to any of their healing would just break them in raiding, where they are nowhere near OP, rather mediocre.

Dont i agree that priest is harder in dungeons? Yes. They are. Simply less suited for that environment.
But their throughput rocks in raids though.

As for number differences on rio. Well first off i would count disc and holy together and compare that number to the rest of the healers. Since if you play priest, you have the option to switch at any point. Compared to the other specs except druid, the numbers seem to be pretty close.

As for why druid is where it is. Druid just has the strongest tools to heal 5men.
Its not about the utility. Sure it helps. But when healing matters, you take the healer who can pump enough to kill the hard bosses.
Its laughable to think that druid is somehow superior because of curse dispel for example. On the witches you mentioned, that only helps you dispelling yourself(or one target total) when the debuffs go out. In the end its effect is negligible. I dont remember a single instance where a curse dispel would be more beneficial as you said vs disease that it would make druids so amazing to ignore any other healer.
And yeah, on my monk i can just tell my group to ignore the mushrooms in underrot for example and just revival it off the group. Thats also utility right?
Its rather just differences in basic tools that make one better in dungeons. Monks essence font for example weakens a lot and just doesnt have the kind of healing that a dungeon requires. Wild growth on the other hand fits in perfectly. All druid tools fit right in.
Pallies only problem is that they struggle outside cooldowns.
Shamans lack single target healing and their only “tank cooldown” is slt.
As for priest, i agree that they lack defensives vs first 3. And that their st healing is not the best either.

Im not defending blizzard for not being able to balance healers raid vs dungeons because they cant. Even druid vs monk, aoe healing feels a lot cheaper and easier on druid, but they do similar in the raids.

But overall priest has the utility. It just doesnt have the numbers and ofc there is the problem with not having an enemy to target on grievous and bursting weeks.
You have an offensive dispel, fear and aoe knockback. Shields. 30% aoe DR on 3 mins and the strongest tank cooldown(even if its long cooldown) and there is rapture which is spammable shields.
And brings the dps and the stamina buff.
You seem to ignore the utility your class brings saying its not useful at all.
Its not like the utility part is that far apart between them.
Priest was just designed for a bigger group.
Overall i agree some of what you said, and many things the monk you are fighting with said aswell.
You are a bit overreacting considering how strong priest has been in the past, which you seem to just ignore for the sake of making an argument.

Sure they are not the best to do m+ with.
Disc is definietly the most wanted healing spec for high levels of mythic raiding ever since i started playing this game though and holy usually has very strong throughput aswell, though yes, they lack utility vs what a disc can bring and more on one level with druid and monk in that field.

Classes have their ups and downs, but disc definietly seems to be top tier in atleast one area of the game going way way back.
Druid only has dungeons as their big area. Lets ignore pvp exists here for the most part since i dont pvp at all. But i heard discs were invincible some patches ago. Maybe the nerf hit them too hard, thats really not something i want to get into right now.

I think i brought up some examples for you and ofc feel free to bring up reasonable arguments against it.
I did agree with priests lacking defensive and some throughput in 5mens vs raid but its something about class design rather than simply just about numbers.

85

The main thing I want to argue against is that you are over valueing shields.

Outside of Rapture effect shields are terrible weak and if it wasn’t for the atonement application they would be used much less.

17K with int buff at 415 ilvl is just pitiful. The specc barely utilises absorb anymore with the exception of solo healing the Death Realm intermission of Rastakhan. But that’s a bit special and you go in with a different talent tree altogether which makes you fairly worse for the rest of the fight.

Also, I wouldn’t consider shields “utility”. They are part of the healing output.

And trust me, dispelling the witches DOES matter on tyrannical weeks in high keys. A lot. Because the classes who can’t dispel it are also the classes who can’t heal as easily during a movement heavy phase like the Aura phase when the curse is applied, so that phase targets all the wrong niches. (except monks and essence font, but they probably have some issues the higher they go too)

Likewise, Poisons are also dangerous this expansion. Most prominent example probably being the King’s Rest mini-boss gauntlet after the first boss. Particularly on Fortified.

So druid was the lucky pick when it comes to dispelling the real dangerous debuffs. Paladins, monks and shamans are comfortable with having one of the two, but priest having an offensive dispel instead of a 3d ailment came to bite us up the bum this expansion, because offensive dispelling isn’t that unique and rare ever since Demon Hunters got added with one.

This is purely due to an oversight in dungeon design and not classes though, I think the ailment removal distribution adds a nice flavour to healers and is fine in my book.

All in all, what I’d like to see are:
a) a real personal cooldown and not one that actually causes me to take more dmg from Grievous.
b) a way to specialise a little heavier into tank healing from talents (not forced Azerite traits like Holy) like all other classes have. This applies to both Holy and Discipline.
c) some mobility given back to Holy by making Prayer of Mending instant cast again.

For starters, then re-evaluate.

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86

Always wondered how it’s even possible. M+ gives me PTSD because of how insanely stressful the environment is, a combination of the dungeon itself and players to a point where you’re shivering like it’s -20.A tiny mistake and people will sh*t on you and tell you to go kill yourself IRL all the time. But i assume that’s just how pugs are.

1 Like
87

Correct.

Gradually improving and pushing with people that you are actually having fun with is much more rewarding if people keep an open mind and are open to finding out what each of them as a group can improve.

88

Heh, wish i was blessed with such a thing. Over time i’ve tried guilds, Discord Fail train…no use whatsoever. I wouldn’t mind pushing keys, but because of pugs, the idea of doing mythic+ as whole is absolutely dreadful, because it feels like digging your own grave on every trash pack and bosses.

P.S. What is it with trash having more mechanics than bosses anyway.

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89

You just answered everything yourself. People want +15 xp.

90

First question.
Are you a tank? If yes. Then being a tank in m+ is an absolute different situation.
The feeling that 4 other people are judging your every move and ready to pounce the moment they can criticize for something…is anything BUT de-stressing and relaxing. :smiley:

So I am either on my rogue or mage and its quite relaxing. So far anyway.
Also have a tank alt but I keep the tank just doing the weekly +10 chore and not 1 level above it for…obvious reasons. :smiley:

91

I completely agree with what you’re saying, but!

This is a ridiculous statement. You can’t expect to get into 15s when you only ever experienced 13s max, especially when the queue is flooded with people with much better experience than you. You’re likely never gonna get invited to a high key if you have never set foot in that level, especially not when you’re 2 levels behind it, and that is not the fault of class balance in any way, that is you not realizing that what your experience shows is not adequate for what you’re trying to join.

92

This mindset for people is a BIG part of the problem.
How is he supposed to get a higher score if no one takes him for the key that is higher?
You do not magically get that score you need to do the dungeon at the level to get the score so asking a 1500 rating to do 15s are STUPID.
as what you are asking for is for people who have already done every dungeon at 15 in time.

It is the same stupidity that is why people ask for 1000+ in score to do 10s.

What you are essentially asking for is to get boosted.
(and i do not care about your score when you ask for people that do not actually need the key it becomes a boosting situation)

If there is people in the queue that is higher i get that you take them but do not come with this that you need to have done ALL the dungeons at the key level to be able to do that 1 dungeon at that key level.

Edit: just noticed that rio score i have listed here as for 15s can be wrong as i see some keys at 15 intime gives me a score of 160+
but my point stand asking for the same score as what the dungeon would give is just wierd.

93

dead game.

1 Like
94

Did you just pay money to blizzard to make that comment?

95

I don’t know if i would say the mindset is really the problem, it is a byproduct of there being a supply so great that there is no reason to settle.

Push own key or get a group of guildies/friends/m+ team. Those are the only real ways to get out, and while the 2 latter might not appeal to all, the first is something literally everyone can do.
I cannot speak for all m+ players, but almost everyone i know that is 2k+ started by pushing their own key, and then used the group finder to get the keys they were missing, but only after experiencing keys higher than that. (so like push your own key to 15 or 16, and then start queueing for 15s in the group finder).

Again, people are only asking for that, because they know that is what is supplied. If you know you can get a 1500+ dude in a matter of minutes, then might as well write it in the title so people know what you’re waiting for.
In some cases, if people with high score are doing a lower ish key, they might ask for a higher score than needed for that, to ensure players of similar skill. I gotta tell you, it really sucks to play with people who don’t know how to interrupt or do skips, so you might ask for 1500 for a 13 so you can maybe 2 chest it, i think you get the point.

That is not what i think, but it is definitely how a lot of people think in the pugging community. Personally i look at their highest key done. If i am hosting a 13 on an alt and someone queues with 1k score, but has 15 experience, sure i will take him over the 1300 guy who has only done 13s any day of the week. I don’t think you need high score for low keys, just gotta show that you at least have experience in what you want to do. As you go higher, you rarely see people who do not have all dungeons on a similar level, so at that point, if you’re queueing for a 19, then you better be around 2k most of the time. Though i did recently have a dude with 1800 score, but had done a 21 in time, took him and he played amazing, but i am not taking a guy with low score, compared to what else is in queue, AND has not done a key of that level yet.

It is different when it is for a 10. We are many weeks into the season now, and you can expect people who just do weekly 10 to have around 1k, so it is just to secure a smooth run i guess. even though i personally don’t look at score when doing alt 10s, i just take someone who has done a few 10s and 11s and let that be it.

Again, it is not about being boosted, but you’re never gonna take the bad player over the good player just to not get boosted. Everyone wants their run to be as smooth as possible, and that is generally done by getting the best players you can.

96

yup and i regret that i came back to the game, and the worst thing that players is abusing the raider io ( 1.3k mythic score or no inv ) .

its like people are being controlled by this sh!tty addon. and i know someone gonna say make your own group ->thats not gonna solve anything

and i don’t know why until now blizzard didn’t do anything about it.

97

It is not the addons fault.

The information is public knowledge, you can go to someones armory and see their experience, the addon just makes that process easier.

You would get declined from the same groups.

You’re not being controlled by an addon, you’re being controlled/limited by your actual performance in the game, which i think is fair enough.

I can’t guarantee you it will work, but pushing own key helped me and everyone else i know. Granted everyone who got up probably did that, but not everyone who does it gets up, but it also took me some time until i broke through, don’t give up, just keep going at it, and i am sure you will get there some day.

Am curious tho, what class/spec do you play and what keys are you getting declined from with 1300?

98

Somebody just had to open the pandora’s box and mention the raider io addon.
There are a lot of threads and comments regarding this and it always boils down to this:

  1. I want to do high m+ keys!
  2. Get better r. io score!
  3. How can I get better r. io score if nobody takes me to higher keys?!
  4. Push your own key. Get some guildies and friends to help. Join a community.
  5. Insert random reason why cant step 4 be done here.
  6. [Go back to step 1]
1 Like
99

The irony is Dripping from this comment.
So here is the irony as you can not see it:
YOU would GLADLY join that persons KEY even if his Rio score was LOW YET you would not be willing to take him in the dungeon if he was Queueing.
End.

Do you see it? you do not give a damn if he got low rio if it is his key but you would not in a million years let him join your group for the SAME exact key.

100

Being a keyholder has its “perks” too.
If I make a group. Then i make the rules. I can make a LFM FH +2. r. io 2500! Now. Will people join my key? Nop. But is there a rule or law which prevents me from asking such requirements? Nop.

If I enter sombody else’s key then its their rules and I am fully at their mercy. If they don’t want a rogue then I am out in the cold and nobody cares how “fair or not it is”.
Same. If its my key. I make the best possible comp I can do. And I don’t care how fair it is or not.
My key. My rules.